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Demand drivers for Tesla / EVs

MitchJi

Trying to learn kindness, patience & forgiveness
Jun 1, 2015
3,989
8,907
Marin County, CA
Exactly. Even if they have "heard" of electric cars, they often don't understand how they work, and they don't understand their 3 huge consumer benefits (instant torque, convenience, smooth & quiet ride).
I guess don't understand that either. Because IMO the primary consumer benefits are the low cost of fuel and the lower maintenance costs. I don't think that convenience should even be considered a benefit. It's not a benefit when you need to refuel.
 

GSP

Member
Supporting Member
Dec 28, 2007
2,575
804
I guess don't understand that either. Because IMO the primary consumer benefits are the low cost of fuel and the lower maintenance costs. I don't think that convenience should even be considered a benefit. It's not a benefit when you need to refuel.

Refueling is much more convenient with EVs. Just plug them in at night. It is a nice benefit.

Of course, EVs can be less convenient for long trips, unless you can use Tesla's superchargers. Just take your secondary car instead.

GSP
 

hcsharp

Active Member
Jun 7, 2011
3,409
1,437
Vermont
I guess don't understand that either. Because IMO the primary consumer benefits are the low cost of fuel and the lower maintenance costs. I don't think that convenience should even be considered a benefit. It's not a benefit when you need to refuel.

Your post makes me wonder if you own an EV. I find convenience to be a bigger benefit than fuel cost savings and lower maintenance. Taking 3 seconds to plug/unplug at home every day is far more pleasant and convenient than having to remember to visit one of those dirty, stinky, public places. Long road trips require a little advance planning but otherwise not usually less convenient than gas.

My wife put it this way, "You often buy an EV for different reasons than you keep one. You think that buying gas is no big deal because you're used to it and take it for granted. But after driving an EV for a month, you marvel at how nice it is never to have to buy gas or pay attention to how full your tank is. You realize you've gone a whole month without having to remember to schedule your next oil change."

How does this relate to L-T fundamentals? The general public has yet to realize that EVs are more convenient. When we reach that tipping point when the secret finally gets out, I hope Tesla is big enough to take advantage of it.
 

ecarfan

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2013
19,345
14,011
West Vancouver, British Columbia
Long-Term Fundamentals of Tesla Motors (TSLA)

I guess don't understand that either. Because IMO the primary consumer benefits are the low cost of fuel and the lower maintenance costs. I don't think that convenience should even be considered a benefit. It's not a benefit when you need to refuel.
Do you own an EV? I think you do not. Until you own an EV and live with it for awhile it is hard for some people to understand just how amazingly convenient it is to spend a few seconds plugging the car in at night and unplugging it in the morning and never having to visit a gas station. It is a real benefit of EV ownership, and of course with the Tesla Model S/X the benefit of Supercharging for free long distance travel is also very important.
The benefits of EV extend beyond the charging convenience and the cost savings. They also include a superior driving experience: "one pedal" driving, quiet and smooth acceleration. And many other things. It's a long list.
 

FANGO

Active Member
Jun 6, 2013
1,287
376
California
Long-Term Fundamentals of Tesla Motors (TSLA)

I guess don't understand that either. Because IMO the primary consumer benefits are the low cost of fuel and the lower maintenance costs. I don't think that convenience should even be considered a benefit. It's not a benefit when you need to refuel.

Convenience is absolutely benefit number one. When you need to refuel is exactly what it's a convenience. I don't have to go somewhere else to refuel, my car just does it at home.

Hcsharp I've said the same many times about buying and keeping an EV for a different reason. This is why people don't go back. It's why so many volt owners are scared to go to gas stations or use any gas, and want to move to full EVs Asap. And it's why gas is doomed. People just won't go back.
 
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MitchJi

Trying to learn kindness, patience & forgiveness
Jun 1, 2015
3,989
8,907
Marin County, CA
Refueling is much more convenient with EVs. Just plug them in at night. It is a nice benefit.

Of course, EVs can be less convenient for long trips, unless you can use Tesla's superchargers. Just take your secondary car instead.

GSP
I agree that it's a convenience, but I don't think that is a huge primary benefit. As I said I think the primary benefit is the cost savings of not having to pay for gas, and the environmental consequences. Saving fifteen minutes every 400 miles is less than a mosquito bite. Also the original post was directed to all EV's, not just Tesla. So think about a typical EV with an 60-80 mile range and no superchargers. The primary disadvantage of EV's right now is the short range and charging times. Nice try attempting to turn that into a benefit, but IMO it's wrong. It seems so obvious to me that I don't believe I need to explain it.
 

ecarfan

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2013
19,345
14,011
West Vancouver, British Columbia
I agree that it's a convenience, but I don't think that is a huge primary benefit. As I said I think the primary benefit is the cost savings of not having to pay for gas, and the environmental consequences. Saving fifteen minutes every 400 miles is less than a mosquito bite. Also the original post was directed to all EV's, not just Tesla. So think about a typical EV with an 60-80 mile range and no superchargers. The primary disadvantage of EV's right now is the short range and charging times. Nice try attempting to turn that into a benefit, but IMO it's wrong. It seems so obvious to me that I don't believe I need to explain it.
You still have not answered the question: do you own an EV? Do you own a Tesla?
I think you do not. So you have not experienced and come to appreciate the significant advantage of home charging, and the significant advantage of Tesla which is the long range (two to three times as much as any other EV) that means almost all the charging needed is done at home which takes just a few seconds a day.
It is "obvious" to EV owners what a huge advantage that is compared to ICE cars. It is not obvious to non-EV owners because they simply accept the fact that they have to go to gas stations regularly. All EV owners understand that mind set because we've all owned ICEs for many years. But people who have only owned ICEs often don't understand the advantage of home charging an EV because they've never done it.
 

Robert.Boston

Model S VIN P01536
Oct 7, 2011
7,844
41
Portland, Maine, USA
Convenience of refueling matters more to some than to others. For example, Maine winters are very cold, and I really am delighted not to have to stand in a ripping winter wind while I pump gas. I also use to have to build an extra 15 minutes into my schedule leaving from my summer place to drive to Boston to refuel, which meant getting up at 5:15 instead of 5:30. Fifteen minutes at that hour is worth quite a lot, thank you!

Another convenience is being able to pre-heat or pre-cool my car. Getting into a 72°F car regardless of the external temperature is a luxury that ICE vehicles can't offer in all settings (it's a bad idea to use the vehicle pre-start in an enclosed garage, e.g.).
 

ItsNotAboutTheMoney

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2012
10,767
7,982
Maine
I agree that it's a convenience, but I don't think that is a huge primary benefit. As I said I think the primary benefit is the cost savings of not having to pay for gas, and the environmental consequences. Saving fifteen minutes every 400 miles is less than a mosquito bite. Also the original post was directed to all EV's, not just Tesla. So think about a typical EV with an 60-80 mile range and no superchargers. The primary disadvantage of EV's right now is the short range and charging times. Nice try attempting to turn that into a benefit, but IMO it's wrong. It seems so obvious to me that I don't believe I need to explain it.

I'll echo what others are saying: you don't own a BEV or even a Volt, which significantly reduce the need to go to gas stations. Like Robert I live in Maine, and filling up can be very unpleasant. Although where I live, you very rarely have to wait to fill up, I am familiar with places where there are frequent lines at gas stations.

Maybe you live in an area of Oregon or New Jersey where you neither have to wait nor have self-service.

Not only is home charging convenient, but public charging also has a convenience: it is unattended. Plugging/unplugging is quick, and then the issue of time is a question of whether you're in a rush, or have something to do. And, if you want, you can wait in your car, with your car running. Or some Tesla owners chat with other owners at Superchargers. It's worth remembering that EV charging sites can be clean, unlike the toxic environments of gas stations, which are equivalent to very busy roads, so they aren't places to hurry away from.

All of this makes the idea of tipping points very relevant. More EVs makes EVs better.
 

sub

Active Member
May 24, 2013
1,484
2,431
Sonora California
Having an i3 for the past few months has allowed our family to visit gas stations 75% less if not more. The i3 is always the first car to be driven so the ice cars are only used as secondary cars or for utility (towing etc) or the occasional longer trip out of town. I can't wait to be 100% EV.

its amazing to me how little people care about our melting planet and that a perceived slight inconvenience is enough for them to justify the continued destruction of our environment. I would make EXTRA effort to drive an EV, however, the reality is it's less effort. Win Win.
 

MitchJi

Trying to learn kindness, patience & forgiveness
Jun 1, 2015
3,989
8,907
Marin County, CA
Hi,

I think I should try to clarify my views, and apologize for the lack of clarity in my original post on this topic:
Exactly. Even if they have "heard" of electric cars, they often don't understand how they work, and they don't understand their 3 huge consumer benefits (instant torque, convenience, smooth & quiet ride).

Mitch said:
I guess don't understand that either. Because IMO the primary consumer benefits are the low cost of fuel and the lower maintenance costs. I don't think that convenience should even be considered a benefit. It's not a benefit when you need to refuel.
What I should have said is something like the following, and I might have mentioned that convenience and comfort do not rate highly in my personal priorities:

I disagree with that list. I think that the "three huge consumer benefits" are the following:
1. The environmental benefits.
2. The lower cost of electricity vs gas.
3. The lower maintenance costs.

The convenience of being able to charge at home is definitely a benefit, but it is a double edged sword when compared to ICE cars, because a side effect of that convenience, is a limited number of places to charge and slow recharging times.

Also even the Superchargers due to the combination of very limited availability compared to gas stations are not fast enough that using them can be considered a "huge consumer...convenience", and most "electric cars" can't use them.
End of what I should have said.

I'm not alone in the opinion that the "convenience" of being able to home charge is a double edged sword:
Alexander and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Tesla Model S P85D Road Trip –Â*Feature – Car and Driver | Car and Driver Blog
CarAndDriver said:
Alexander And The Terrible Horrible No Good Very Bad Tesla Model S P85D Road Trip...

And to demonstrate that Car and Driver are not Tesla bashers:
2015 Tesla Model S P85D Long-Term Intro Car and Driver
CarAndDriver said:
Tesla only provided a Model S for our annual 10 Best evaluation this past September—at which time the electric car promptly earned a spot on our list of the greatest cars on sale today...

its amazing to me how little people care about our melting planet and that a perceived slight inconvenience is enough for them to justify the continued destruction of our environment. I would make EXTRA effort to drive an EV.
Exactly :biggrin:!
 
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FANGO

Active Member
Jun 6, 2013
1,287
376
California
So think about a typical EV with an 60-80 mile range and no superchargers. The primary disadvantage of EV's right now is the short range and charging times. Nice try attempting to turn that into a benefit, but IMO it's wrong. It seems so obvious to me that I don't believe I need to explain it.

Over the course of two years, I've spent literally seconds plugging in my car. Then I go inside and enjoy my time - I eat dinner with family, watch TV, play some games, have some friends over, sleep, any number of normal activities which happen in parallel with my car charging itself, no waiting required.

But you've filled up your car, what, once a week? So 10 minutes x 100 weeks = 1000 minutes, over 16 hours, literally an entire waking day spent in a gas station. A dirty, smelly, expensive gas station, where they have those loud TVs blaring ads at you now, touching a pump that everyone else in the world has touched with their gross hands, funneling your hard earned money to literal terrorists and doing great damage to the world (and thus your own lungs) in the process. And that's not even counting any of the times you have to go out of your way to find gas stations. You count this as a benefit?

Nice try attempting to turn that into a benefit, but it's wrong. It's obvious that it's wrong if you've tried both ways. Own an EV, you will know this. We have all experienced filling gas cars and filling EVs, and we know which is better. If you've only ever experienced one, then I don't see how you can make such an "obvious" decision.

Just as hcsharp said, people who don't own EVs don't get this. They try an EV, they are impressed by the acceleration, or by the environmental benefit, or the cost, or any number of things. These are the reasons people buy EVs. But the reason people keep EVs is because of convenience. People are afraid of change, even positive change, and so they spend a lot of time convincing themselves, or being convinced by powerful interests who benefit from the status quo, that change is hard. But once the change is made, and people see how an EV is tremendously more convenient, they are even more thrilled by the process of ownership than they thought they would be.

You haven't answered whether you own an EV because you probably consider it irrelevant. We're not trying to point fingers or witch hunt you here, we just all know you don't own one because this is something specific to the owner experience which EV owners understand and non-EV owners don't. That's how we can tell, because we all know this is a benefit, not a drawback. And we know it because we've done it. We don't just think it, we haven't deluded ourselves into it, it really is better. Even for those of us who can't supercharge (but especially for those of you who can). If you haven't tried it, then I don't see how you can talk about "explaining" to us how charging is worse, because we've all tried both, and we all know which is better from experience.
 
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Johan

Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
Feb 9, 2012
7,496
9,788
Drammen, Norway
Yet, MitchJi, you continue to avoid ecarfan's question. Do you own an EV? A Tesla?

I agree. If he had said the inconvenience was "charging times when doing long distance travel using the SuperCharger network" (it's less of an inconvenience than most non-owners realize, but it's still the only relevant metric where a Tesla is somewhat of a compromise as compared to an ICE) I'd think he had real life experiences but now I don't. The question I get asked most: "How long does it take to charge?" My answer (yes, I know it's a bit cliche but it accurately describes my experience): "It takes 10 seconds to plug in at night and 10 seconds to unplug in the morning".
 

ItsNotAboutTheMoney

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2012
10,767
7,982
Maine
I disagree with that list. I think that the "three huge consumer benefits" are the following:
1. The environmental benefits.

The vast majority of consumers don't care enough about the environment to make any kind of adjustment. If they did, the new car market would be a lot different, and the market would shift _towards_ efficiency as gas prices fall, not _away_ from it, because lower gas prices would allow people to spend more on efficiency and reduced emissions.
 

GSP

Member
Supporting Member
Dec 28, 2007
2,575
804
He clearly does not own an EV.

Not yet at least, that is clear.

Sounds like he likely will try one in the future, and get hooked like the rest of us.

The implication to TSLA is that it will take time to convert customers to EVs. Some things just require first hand experience.

GSP
 

hcsharp

Active Member
Jun 7, 2011
3,409
1,437
Vermont
... The question I get asked most: "How long does it take to charge?" My answer (yes, I know it's a bit cliche but it accurately describes my experience): "It takes 10 seconds to plug in at night and 10 seconds to unplug in the morning".

Dude, you need to work on that. Seriously, it's more like 2 seconds to unplug, 2 - 3 seconds to plug in.:biggrin:
(yes, I've actually timed it)

But you had a good answer to "How long does it take to charge?" Another good answer is "I don't know. I'm usually asleep."
 

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