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Costco, Sams and Kroger, all on my way to and from somewhere so fueling is very convenient and most often line free. Yet I would say that home fueling is the number 1 benefit of my Leaf. Simply because I never need to know if I need fuel or not. The lack of knowledge about the status of fuel in my other car is bothersome. Even if it cost me the same to fuel an EV vs gas car, the EV wins because of home fueling. There cannot be enough said about full tank every morning. And people do not get it until they actually own an EV. So my answer to what's the range of the Leaf is slowly changing from "80 miles" to "who cares, I have a full tank each morning" because I really have no idea how far the Leaf will really go :)
 
I think how convenient pumping gas is largely depends on population density.

Pumping gas in West Los Angeles between 7AM and 10AM or 3PM and 7PM is a major league PITA.

Less so if you pump after 10PM or willing to pump at the most expensive station in your area.

In other words it is a PITA to pump when driving to or from work.

Less likely to experience long wait times if you make a special trip for gas during "off peak hours".
 
So I think this thread is coming to a consensus: there's a broad range of reasons a particular consumer might want to buy an EV. Some might look to the big-picture environmental benefits, some to the pocket-book issue of buying gas (and the volatility of that cost, making budgets hard to work out), others for personal convenience of not spending time getting gas and oil changes, great personal saftey from the lack of carrying your own accelerant, etc. As an economist, I can confidently say that we can't predict which of this menu will be important to any particular consumer, but the breadth of the benefits should be compelling to a great many consumers.

Against all these positives, the only negative I can think of is the (slight) inconvenience on long-distance travel.
 
... I am going to stop replying to posts on this thread, that either ignore what I've said, or can't accept the fact that someone else can have a valid opinion that is different than their own, due to either different circumstances or different personal priorities.
If you haven't experienced an EV, your opinion isn't valid on this issue. Now you could have argued that it can't drive demand because demand (for now) has to come from people, like you, who have not experienced an EV.
 
#1 is more of a societal benefit, the consumer benefit would be "feeling good" about the environmental benefits. #3 is probably less true for Model S with $600/year service. Home charging is in my personal top 3, for sure.

Indeed.

Funny to just now come to a 6-page thread that started based on a comment/claim I made.

A few points here:

1) I've been covering the EV movement practically every day for several years. The statement that kicked off this thread is based on paying close attention to EV owners as well as reading and writing about many reports, and even working on a report on EVs right now.

2) It may not be the case for everyone, but convenience is consistently a highly touted and highly rated benefit of EVs... which is "interesting" since the mass media flips that on its head and thinks it's the other way around.

3) Obviously, the response here backs this up...

4) I was indeed very careful with my words (as I try to be) when I wrote "consumer benefits." The climate crisis is driving much of the EV policy, EV development (part of why Tesla is here today), and early adoption. However, it is the consumer benefits that will make EVs the norm rather than a niche option. I think it's very clear that convenience is one of the biggest consumer benefits -- if not the biggest consumer benefit. But, as others have said, most people won't get this until they've experienced it. In the meantime, people, please keep telling others about your 2- to 3-second "fill-ups," recharging while you sleep, etc. :D

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For me adding gas consists of stopping at a self-serve station in town, when I am driving past there anyway, where I don't remember ever waiting in line. I slide my card into the slot, select my fuel type, and the whole process takes me under 4 minutes.

As for the Oil Change I put maintenance on my list. Can't you see that you are basically saying that I'm wrong because of your own circumstances? And you are also claiming that I'm wrong because your cost of maintenance, which I have stated multiple times, is something that I think is more important than convenience!

So not only are my priorities different than most of you, but my situation is different as well. That does not mean that I am incorrect or an idiot!

I am going to stop replying to posts on this thread, that either ignore what I've said, or can't accept the fact that someone else can have a valid opinion that is different than their own, due to either different circumstances or different personal priorities.

No one is saying you can't have your own list of priorities/benefits -- just that they aren't the norm.

In my "8 Reasons Electric Cars Kick Your Car’s Boot" article, fuel savings and fewer maintenance needs are two of the items. But the fact of the matter is, for many people, the higher upfront price of EVs is still a bigger turnoff, and it's also often a higher extra cost than the fuel/maintenance savings offer. (It really depends on individual circumstances and varies greatly.)

Those are benefits. But the ones I mentioned are widely ranked higher by EV owners/lessees. Not by 100% of people, but by the largest % :D.

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Environmental benefits are absolutely consumer benefits. Better environment = better health for consumers.

I agree. But most consumers are not going to prioritize that. It is the direct consumer benefits of the product when they use it that will inspire the masses to go electric.

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Interesting (to me) how so many people detest going to gas stations. That's so low on my radar as to be inconsequential. That never really bothered me, nor does it today when I take my wife's ICE for gas (apparently she hates it and gets me to fill her car up!).

I hate it, and I'm sure a lot of people find it annoying and inconvenient, but I'd bet that those of us more concerned about the carcinogens that cost society hundreds of billions of dollars a year are the ones more bothered by it. Raised by parents concerned about such matters, I were socialized to avoid such carcinogens, and gas stations are basically epicenters of these delightful things. :D

I know some people actually like the smell of gas. Not connecting the dots and enjoying something that is as harmful as it is bewilders me. But, yes, we've all been socialized differently and have different levels of concern when it comes to such matters.
 
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+1 - you must be kidding. For us, not having to "get gas" is a primary benefit of owning a Tesla. As soon as our extended warranty runs out on our Odyssey, we are getting a second Tesla. We would love to get an X but if there is still a waiting list we can settle for another S.

I agree that it's a convenience, but I don't think that is a huge primary benefit. As I said I think the primary benefit is the cost savings of not having to pay for gas, and the environmental consequences. Saving fifteen minutes every 400 miles is less than a mosquito bite. Also the original post was directed to all EV's, not just Tesla. So think about a typical EV with an 60-80 mile range and no superchargers. The primary disadvantage of EV's right now is the short range and charging times. Nice try attempting to turn that into a benefit, but IMO it's wrong. It seems so obvious to me that I don't believe I need to explain it.
 
MitchJi is a classic example of how difficult it is to make someone understand the benefits of an EV, if you haven't owned one for some time. Test drives are great to experience the amazing torque and regen, but even for that you need to drive it around for a few days to understand how addictive it is.

Most of them end up doing calculations on a spreadsheet to find out cost of ownership and savings, and that is completely missing the point.

Even If gas prices were to drop less than a buck, the amazing torque and the benefits of a full tank every day morning is enough to keep me on an EV.
 
Just up front, I don't own an EV yet, though I'm a Tesla convert. I started a thread a while back about what I saw as the demographics of who buys Teslas:

1) Environmentally conscious people - These are the people you would expect to buy a hybrid or BEV. They are concerned about the environment and want to do their part to save the planet. It's probably the group you would expect to buy Teslas.

2) Luxury car buyers - There is a fair bit out there comparing the Tesla to other $100K cars from Mercedes, BMW, etc. and I have seen a number of people with blogs or YouTube videos who did get a Tesla after driving these other luxury cars.

3) Hotrodders - YouTube is full of videos of people drag racing Teslas against some of the highest performance cars in the world. The P models are marketed towards these people.

4) Techies - These are probably the same sort of people who sat in line outside an Apple store to get the latest iPhone at least once. Or they are early adopters of new technology in one way or another.

I would add a 5th group from this thread and comments elsewhere

5) Convenience fans - People who hate buying gas and love having a "full tank" for their commute every morning. As well as those looking for a car that requires less maintenance than an ICE and they like the cheaper "fuel".

Probably every buyer is a mix of these to some extent. I see a difference between the Tesla and other EV market. The general EV market is pretty much a concentration of #1 and #5 and the price of gas at the pump is going to affect that market to some degree. A number of EVs have seen sales drop this year, but they have new models coming out which might be suppressing sales, but the price of oil has dropped this year too.

Tesla appeals to a wider audience other EVs don't touch and the Model S has been more immune to the fluctuations in the price of oil.

If mainstream car makers start coming out with 200 mile EVs, that will help sell them to some extent, but if they are kind of gutless, spartan, and low in tech features, I doubt they will put much of a dent in Tesla sales.
 
I suspect 'Environmental benefits' is just a foot note for a majority of current owners. IMHO It's impact as an EV sales driver is way overblown.

For Tesla I think it is more so than for other EVs. I don't know many EV drivers personally, but I know a lot of Prius owners. Every other car in Portland is a Prius. A major motivation for many of them are environmental concerns. I suspect environmental concerns is a major factor in Leaf and Volt sales.

I'm not as rabid an environmentalist as many people I know, but one of my criteria in my car search was better gas mileage than my current car (23 year old Buick). Because of my long legs and need for a good road car that fits me, I'm already pushed into a larger car. I would fit in an SUV, but I don't like them and their fuel economy is often worse than my current car. I found most cars in the size range I was looking in have only slightly better gas mileage than my current car. I was surprised at the lack of progress in the last 23 years.

My casting about for better fuel economy (that also wasn't gutless and had good storage space) led me to look at Tesla on a lark, even though it was out of my target price range by a wide margin. I'm going to have to save up longer than I expected though my SO is talking about selling some property she was thinking about selling for a while to help advance the schedule a bit.
 
I found most cars in the size range I was looking in have only slightly better gas mileage than my current car. I was surprised at the lack of progress in the last 23 years.

It is two steps forward and 1.5 back. A lot of weight is added for safety features and requirements and some for luxury features.

Direct fuel injection, regen braking even on non-hybrids,micro hybrids, stop and go engine deactivation, almost seamless cylinder deactivation, high strength steels, more aluminum,various plastics( a 100k+ mile plastic ICE could be made now but it would be unmarketable thanks to memories of the Chevy Vega).

But Volvo has set a goal of zero vehicular deaths soon (2020?) others will have to follow and "mainstream" $30k Camry's and Accords must have a feature list better than BMW and MB had 23 years ago.

Seems everybody "needs" heated,ventilated and cooled seats.

So that makes cars porky, hence lower MPG gains.
 
Just up front, I don't own an EV yet, though I'm a Tesla convert. I started a thread a while back about what I saw as the demographics of who buys Teslas:

1) Environmentally conscious people - These are the people you would expect to buy a hybrid or BEV. They are concerned about the environment and want to do their part to save the planet. It's probably the group you would expect to buy Teslas.

2) Luxury car buyers - There is a fair bit out there comparing the Tesla to other $100K cars from Mercedes, BMW, etc. and I have seen a number of people with blogs or YouTube videos who did get a Tesla after driving these other luxury cars.

3) Hotrodders - YouTube is full of videos of people drag racing Teslas against some of the highest performance cars in the world. The P models are marketed towards these people.

4) Techies - These are probably the same sort of people who sat in line outside an Apple store to get the latest iPhone at least once. Or they are early adopters of new technology in one way or another.

I would add a 5th group from this thread and comments elsewhere

5) Convenience fans - People who hate buying gas and love having a "full tank" for their commute every morning. As well as those looking for a car that requires less maintenance than an ICE and they like the cheaper "fuel".

Probably every buyer is a mix of these to some extent. I see a difference between the Tesla and other EV market. The general EV market is pretty much a concentration of #1 and #5 and the price of gas at the pump is going to affect that market to some degree. A number of EVs have seen sales drop this year, but they have new models coming out which might be suppressing sales, but the price of oil has dropped this year too.

Tesla appeals to a wider audience other EVs don't touch and the Model S has been more immune to the fluctuations in the price of oil.

If mainstream car makers start coming out with 200 mile EVs, that will help sell them to some extent, but if they are kind of gutless, spartan, and low in tech features, I doubt they will put much of a dent in Tesla sales.

That's a good summary, but a few things are still lacking. 1) A lot of people want to dump gas for socioeconomic-political reasons -- whether that combines with #1 & #5 depends on the individual. 2) The different/new/better tech of EVs (beyond Tesla) still attracts a lot of techies. 3) A *lot* of EV owners/lessees (beyond Tesla ones) love the instant torque/performance of their EVs, and that was surely a buying factor for many of them.

I recently conducted a survey of 819 EV owners/lessees. ~20% had a Tesla. When Asked about their favorite thing about their EVs, 18% chose the climate benefits, 16% not supporting the oil industry, 13% instant torque, 11% convenient home charging, 10% can drive on sunshine. Remember, though, these are early adopters. When it comes to EVs becoming mainstream, the climate benefits most certainly will not be #1, and I am confident "not supporting the oil industry" won't be in the top 3.

My 11 cents :D
 
That's a good summary, but a few things are still lacking. 1) A lot of people want to dump gas for socioeconomic-political reasons -- whether that combines with #1 & #5 depends on the individual. 2) The different/new/better tech of EVs (beyond Tesla) still attracts a lot of techies. 3) A *lot* of EV owners/lessees (beyond Tesla ones) love the instant torque/performance of their EVs, and that was surely a buying factor for many of them.

I recently conducted a survey of 819 EV owners/lessees. ~20% had a Tesla. When Asked about their favorite thing about their EVs, 18% chose the climate benefits, 16% not supporting the oil industry, 13% instant torque, 11% convenient home charging, 10% can drive on sunshine. Remember, though, these are early adopters. When it comes to EVs becoming mainstream, the climate benefits most certainly will not be #1, and I am confident "not supporting the oil industry" won't be in the top 3.

My 11 cents :D

Good point, I'm one of those who would like to see us move away from oil for socio-political reasons, as well as local pollution issues. Spilled oil and fuel gets into waterways, transporting crude by pipeline or rail can lead to spills, cars with faulty emission systems pour gunk into the air (as well as diesels) that ruin air quality. I grew up in Los Angeles when the air quality was at its worst and I had chronic allergies throughout my childhood. They went away when I moved away, but it scarred my lungs and sinuses. History shows that there are a lot more damage done by accidents transporting crude oil than there are transporting electricity over long distances.

I also agree that most of the people going for an EV now have some kind of motive like climate or socio-political and that won't hold when they become mainstream. I've noticed that the bulk of the population tend to reject any new idea until they have seen that it doesn't cause problems. Resistance to marijuana and gay marriage declined very rapidly when various states (and other countries) made moves to legalize and nothing terribly bad happened. There are still some people strongly resisting both, but the middle of the population who initially resisted now accept the idea.

These same conservative people (not necessarily politically conservative, just wary of change) need to be shown that the new thing is at least neutral to society as a whole. If it can be proven to be a benefit, all the better.

EVs, in their current form, are still a new thing and there are some legitimate arguments against them. In an ICE, I can drive from Portland to the Bay Area in one day only stopping for food, calls of nature, and short refueling breaks. It takes 10 minutes to put 400 miles of fuel in my car and deal with snacks and a potty break. With a Model S, the maximum I can get from a fill up is about 250 miles, and that takes an hour or more at a supercharger, though about 200 miles takes about 40 minutes. I don't have a Model S yet, so I don't know how that will play out in my life. I think I can probably recharge myself by taking a short nap while the car is recharging. However, it is something that requires changing the way you drive on a long trip.

High speed chargers are also still a bit spotty. There are some parts of the world where CHAdeMo and/or superchargers are common, but they still aren't ubiquitous. Gas stations are. If you're on a back road in Arkansas, you can find a gas station, but you might be only able to find a 110V outlet to charge your EV.

There are advantages to EVs over ICE, such as more compact motors, much better torque, being able to refuel the car at home, etc. But there are still some drawbacks and the charging time probably won't be solved until the battery technology changes to some new type of battery chemistry that hasn't been invented yet. Even if invented tomorrow it would be at least 10 years before they were in production cars, probably longer.

The conservative middle have to see that EVs are safer, more convenient most of the time, peppier, and generally better than ICE for almost everything before they are going to be swayed. Those who don't want to see EVs become popular are doing everything they can to convince the middle that they aren't better. Most traditional car makers who make alternative vehicles make the consumer feel you need to give something up and/or drive a car that makes you look like a prat to use those alternatives. I pretty much exhausted all the alternatives looking at cars. The bulk of hybrids take up trunk space with the batteries, so you have little cargo space left. The Fusion PHEV only has an 8 cu ft trunk. The ICE version has 16 cu ft.

The Prius is popular because it is one of the few alternative vehicles from mainstream car makers that doesn't have huge sacrifices. However, I find them kind of ugly and no Toyota car has enough legroom for me.
 
No worries, pure subterfuge , they all wish they had one but expensive.

just a question of money

I know plenty of people that can afford 10, but aren't even thinking about getting one (other than listening to me tell them how great they are).

I have a neighbor that drives from Savannah, GA (actually 20 miles west of Savannah off I-16) to Charlotte, NC (King's Mountain west of Charlotte actually). I sort of had her thinking she might want one. So, she asked me what she would have to do on her regular trips to Charlotte as far as charging (keeping in mind that she drives between 78-82mph). I had already sold her on the fact that she would never again have to stop at a gas station for her local driving. She was in love with that. So, I checked out her route. She drives from her home to I-95 which is about 25 miles. She then goes north on I-95 to I-26, to I-77 to Charlotte. Basically, she would have to stop at both the Santee Charger and the Charlotte charger. The Santee stop would be about 20 minutes, but the Charlotte charge would need to be a full charge. Keep in mind, she makes this drive both ways the same day. Also, keep in mind that the Santee charger is about 10 miles north of where she normally gets off at I-26. So, not only does she have a 20 minute charge there, but she also has a 20 minute detour. The supercharger in Charlotte is also not on her route. It is a 20 minute detour away. So, there's another 40 minutes (plus at least 40 minutes to charge). The charge at Santee ultimately costs her 40 minutes x 2 (80 minutes). And the Charlotte charge costs her 80 minutes (20 detour time +40 charge time +20 detour time).

So, if she drives a Tesla on these trips, her day will be longer by AT LEAST 2 hours and 40 minutes (minus the 10 minutes it takes her to fill her gas tank now). She looked at me and said, "you're out of your mind."

It's not a question of money - sorry to say.
 
I know plenty of people that can afford 10, but aren't even thinking about getting one (other than listening to me tell them how great they are).

I have a neighbor that drives from Savannah, GA (actually 20 miles west of Savannah off I-16) to Charlotte, NC (King's Mountain west of Charlotte actually). I sort of had her thinking she might want one. So, she asked me what she would have to do on her regular trips to Charlotte as far as charging (keeping in mind that she drives between 78-82mph). I had already sold her on the fact that she would never again have to stop at a gas station for her local driving. She was in love with that. So, I checked out her route. She drives from her home to I-95 which is about 25 miles. She then goes north on I-95 to I-26, to I-77 to Charlotte. Basically, she would have to stop at both the Santee Charger and the Charlotte charger. The Santee stop would be about 20 minutes, but the Charlotte charge would need to be a full charge. Keep in mind, she makes this drive both ways the same day. Also, keep in mind that the Santee charger is about 10 miles north of where she normally gets off at I-26. So, not only does she have a 20 minute charge there, but she also has a 20 minute detour. The supercharger in Charlotte is also not on her route. It is a 20 minute detour away. So, there's another 40 minutes (plus at least 40 minutes to charge). The charge at Santee ultimately costs her 40 minutes x 2 (80 minutes). And the Charlotte charge costs her 80 minutes (20 detour time +40 charge time +20 detour time).

So, if she drives a Tesla on these trips, her day will be longer by AT LEAST 2 hours and 40 minutes (minus the 10 minutes it takes her to fill her gas tank now). She looked at me and said, "you're out of your mind."

It's not a question of money - sorry to say.

Well there you have it, it won't currently work for this one lady so Tesla is doomed, Everyone sell your positions quick!

The doom and gloom on these forums this past month is becoming almost unbearable, I've considered stepping away until Q1 but then how would I fill my down time during the day. How many times has the mood been like this over the past few years? It never lasts, rational thought eventually returns.

The next 12 months is not going to be comparable to the last 12 months because the financials will be doing a 180 (cash flow positive).
 
Well there you have it, it won't currently work for this one lady so Tesla is doomed, Everyone sell your positions quick!

The doom and gloom on these forums this past month is becoming almost unbearable, I've considered stepping away until Q1 but then how would I fill my down time during the day. How many times has the mood been like this over the past few years? It never lasts, rational thought eventually returns.

The next 12 months is not going to be comparable to the last 12 months because the financials will be doing a 180 (cash flow positive).

Mood on TMC is a fantastic indicator. This feels amazingly much like 10-11 months ago.
 
Well there you have it, it won't currently work for this one lady so Tesla is doomed, Everyone sell your positions quick!

The doom and gloom on these forums this past month is becoming almost unbearable, I've considered stepping away until Q1 but then how would I fill my down time during the day. How many times has the mood been like this over the past few years? It never lasts, rational thought eventually returns.

The next 12 months is not going to be comparable to the last 12 months because the financials will be doing a 180 (cash flow positive).

Of course, because everyone drives 4 hours across 3 states on a regular basis :)
 
Well there you have it, it won't currently work for this one lady so Tesla is doomed, Everyone sell your positions quick!

The doom and gloom on these forums this past month is becoming almost unbearable, I've considered stepping away until Q1 but then how would I fill my down time during the day. How many times has the mood been like this over the past few years? It never lasts, rational thought eventually returns.

The next 12 months is not going to be comparable to the last 12 months because the financials will be doing a 180 (cash flow positive).

Some of you people sure get to be smart-asses when the stock price goes down. Take a chill, it will come back. And read the context of my post. It was in reply to Drax saying that someone else thinks it's only a matter of people having money to afford a Tesla. That simply is NOT true.

And, obviously, this lady is the norm. If a trip from a decent sized city like Savannah to a large city like Charlotte, where there are reasonable access to SuperChargers, adds 2 hours and 40 minutes, think about what it adds for people traveling in smaller, more remote areas. Not everyone lives in California or New York. Selling 25-30k cars in the US is still a niche market - no matter what anyone thinks. To get to the point where people go to buy a car and simply decide whether the Model S (or X or 3) is the better choice for them without giving much thought that it is an electric car, Tesla has to reduce these increases in travel time. Adding 25-40% to travel times just isn't going to cut it. That was true now AND when the stock price was $275. Sorry.
 
I know plenty of people that can afford 10, but aren't even thinking about getting one (other than listening to me tell them how great they are).

I have a neighbor that drives from Savannah, GA (actually 20 miles west of Savannah off I-16) to Charlotte, NC (King's Mountain west of Charlotte actually). I sort of had her thinking she might want one. So, she asked me what she would have to do on her regular trips to Charlotte as far as charging (keeping in mind that she drives between 78-82mph). I had already sold her on the fact that she would never again have to stop at a gas station for her local driving. She was in love with that. So, I checked out her route. She drives from her home to I-95 which is about 25 miles. She then goes north on I-95 to I-26, to I-77 to Charlotte. Basically, she would have to stop at both the Santee Charger and the Charlotte charger. The Santee stop would be about 20 minutes, but the Charlotte charge would need to be a full charge. Keep in mind, she makes this drive both ways the same day. Also, keep in mind that the Santee charger is about 10 miles north of where she normally gets off at I-26. So, not only does she have a 20 minute charge there, but she also has a 20 minute detour. The supercharger in Charlotte is also not on her route. It is a 20 minute detour away. So, there's another 40 minutes (plus at least 40 minutes to charge). The charge at Santee ultimately costs her 40 minutes x 2 (80 minutes). And the Charlotte charge costs her 80 minutes (20 detour time +40 charge time +20 detour time).

So, if she drives a Tesla on these trips, her day will be longer by AT LEAST 2 hours and 40 minutes (minus the 10 minutes it takes her to fill her gas tank now). She looked at me and said, "you're out of your mind."

It's not a question of money - sorry to say.

Dont know anybody that routinely drives more than 50 miles per day.
For long trips most fly. Buy that's just me . I will not
base my investment view on charging time and range.
I will not let the exception be the rule.
 
Of course, because everyone drives 4 hours across 3 states on a regular basis :)

People don't consider best-case scenarios when buying a car. Any car will do the local travel. What they consider is the worse case. They may only drive across 3 states once a year, but they want to know that the car they buy (for $100k) can do it without any worries and without GREAT effort or time. That simply is not the case today.

When you spend $100k on a vehicle, it needs to do EVERYTHING well. Most people aren't like us and consider the trade-offs (ie, never having to stop and get gas again during our daily driving, no oil changes or tuneups). They simply consider whether the car can do everything they need it to (or may need it to). Most people aren't going to buy a car for local driving and a car for that once or twice a year long trip. Nor do they want to have to rent one. A $100k car should be it. And this is not my perspective, this is what every day Joe is saying. Just ask people that don't have a Tesla (that can afford one) and you'll see.