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Despite Falling Behind, Tesla Is Heavily Rolling Out V3 Superchargers

Discussion in 'Supercharging & Charging Infrastructure' started by TMC Staff, Sep 26, 2019.

  1. TMC Staff

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    With a lot on its plate, new Tesla Superchargers have taken a back seat until now. Tesla has many goals, and while it may not always achieve them on time, most of them actually do come true. Moreover, CEO Elon Musk has a multitude of grand plans. While he’s often in over his head and...
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  2. Ostrichsak

    Ostrichsak Active Member

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    So they're going to push to meet his statement of 100% increase for 2019 from 2018, huh? They're at 14% so far so only 86% more to go and a whopping three months left to do it in. ROFL I'll believe it when I see it.
     
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  3. Electroman

    Electroman Well-Known Member

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    Glass half full, sentiment? How many other automakers have rolled out ONE charging station?

    Most of Musks goals are inspirational in nature, when it comes to timings. Are you saying if they achieve 100% additional chargers, 12 months later than their original target date, then it is a failure?
     
  4. X Fan

    X Fan Supporting Member

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    Encouraging news; they need to start shopping pedestals however. Several under construction sites have dead in water for weeks waiting for the products.
     
  5. ajdelange

    ajdelange Banned

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    Just VW AFAIK.
     
  6. Ostrichsak

    Ostrichsak Active Member

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    I don't own any cars from other automakers so I don't care. I own Teslas and the CEO stated 100% increase in Superchargers in 2019.
     
  7. powaking

    powaking Member

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    2 sites local to me have been in Permit stage for over 600 days. Doubt we will se those open up this year.
     
  8. AmpedRealtor

    AmpedRealtor Well-Known Member

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    It's too bad that Tesla Model S/X are falling behind in the charging race. Both Audi e-Tron and Mercedes EQC charge faster than the latest S/X vehicles. Watch this video and look at the Raven's ridiculous taper compared to the Audi. Porsche/VW/Audi have far superior 800v technology which allows for better performance and faster charging due to the vastly reduced waste heat from an 800v system compared with Tesla's 400v.



    Tesla's antiquated system is not competitive w/ latest CCS charge rates. It was fine 6 years ago, but not anymore. The only advantage to Supercharger at this point is ubiquity in US. Once that's gone, Tesla has no advantage.
     
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  9. brkaus

    brkaus Well-Known Member

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    Wonder why the raven was tested at an SC and not CCS? Would that allow higher peak?

    Not sure about your thesis of once supercharger advantage is gone they have nothing. Tesla certainly has an efficiency advantage. And utility wise it seams the etron compares closer to an S in destiny/storage which would have even bigger efficiency advantage.
     
  10. Tony8489

    Tony8489 Member

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    #10 Tony8489, Sep 27, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2019
    What matters in the real world is not kW charge rate, but the actual number of miles added to a charging car in a fixed period of time. Currently, Tesla's greater efficiency more than offsets the difference in charge rates.
    e-tron: 40 minutes to charge 10%-100%. Since 100% = 204 EPA miles, 204 x 90% / 40 minutes = 4.66 mi/min = 140 miles in half an hour
    EQC: 46 minutes to charge 10%-90%. Since 100% = 230 miles, 230 x 80% / 46 minutes = 4.00 mi/min = 120 miles in half an hour
    iPace: 59 minutes to charge 10%-90%. Since 100% = 234 miles, 234 x 80% / 59 minutes = 3.17 mi/min = 95 miles in half an hour
    Model X Raven: 61 minutes to charge 10%-90%. Since 100% = 325 miles, 325 x 80% / 61 minutes = 4.26 mi/min = 127 miles in half an hour

    Yes the taper at high SOC may hit Tesla worse, but a real world Raven charge for half an hour is faster. I took my new Model S Raven to the local 150kW supercharger in its first week at 17% SOC and added 182 miles in half an hour. That would be 182 x 325/370 = 160 miles for Model X, still faster than the e-tron.

    Then I went back to the video and paused it at the half hour mark:
    e-tron had added 77% = 157 miles
    EQC had added 58% = 133 miles
    iPace had added 49% = 115 miles
    Model X had added 53% = 172 miles

    Porsche claims to add 75% in 22.5 minutes with the 350kW charger. Since 100% = 220 miles, 220 x 75% / 22.5 minutes = 7.33 mi/min. That's modestly better than my 6.07 mi/min (I did average 7 mi/min for the first 20 minutes) in the Raven S, and I'm guessing the Raven S might average 7/mi for half an hour at a v3 supercharger. If the Taycan has to use a 150kW CCS, it will probably be similar to the e-tron.

    I think these Euro electric SUV's will do OK over there with shorter driving distances and a dense CCS charging network. But low 200's rated range and poor efficiency won't cut it for $70K SUV's in North America. The Taycan will sell here, but it's a low volume niche product.
     
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  11. Roger Keay

    Roger Keay Member

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    The Porsche Taycan has 800 volt technology but I haven't seen anything referring to the e-tron, EQC or iPace as operating on the higher voltage. In TB's video, the quad split screen shows iPace at 401 volts and EQC at 356 volts. The batteries in the European vehicles seem to use pouch cells rather than the cylinders used in Teslas. The different cell structure may have charging advantages - perhaps someone with knowledge can comment.

    The TB comparison is based on SUV body style vehicles but Tesla's newest and most evolved offering is the Model 3 sedan. The larger 2170 cells have more capacity and with a better cooling system allow the battery to charge more quickly. The new electronics are more efficient and the vehicle is lighter resulting in lower power consumption per mile or km. A new version of the S/X platform based on Model 3 technology might be as quick charging as the best of the European SUVs.

    Fast charging is important because it increases the throughput at charging stations. The more vehicles per hour, the lower the cost of the charging infrastructure per user. In busy locations, capacity can be increased just by changing out the Superchargers. Most Teslas on the road are now Model 3 sedans so higher charging rates work for those vehicles. In addition, even the long range version of the M3 sedan only has a 75 kWh battery so the combination of smaller battery and faster charging reduces the dwell time for a vehicle at the charger.
     
  12. Brovane

    Brovane Member

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    Since when did L3 charging above 100kw+ become antiquated?

     
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  13. mociaf9

    mociaf9 Active Member

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    Jesus, do you people not know how to read? He didn't say that they would double the number of superchargers.
     
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  14. Ostrichsak

    Ostrichsak Active Member

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    He absolutely did during the quarterly earnings call to start the year. I saw/heard him say it with my own eyes/ears as it was one of the more jarring statements I heard at the time which is why I remember it so vividly. He said the same thing about 2018 and they did it but to double the previous years double would effectively be putting them up at four times the rate they did in 2017. That's no small task but he was VERY assured when he made that statement. There was no hesitation in his voice at all and it was simply a matter of fact. I don't even have Twitter so I have no idea what you linked to but it doesn't matter because that's not where he made the statement.
     
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  15. UTMB

    UTMB Member

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    For heck’s sake, we’re talking about chargers that are primarily used for travel...and by folks who want to use their free supercharger miles locally (a minority). This pissing match is silly. The answer is more locations, not “Electrify America charges Turbo Taycans and eTrons faster.” EA could double the number of chargers and they still would have a deficient network populated by broken chargers. St. Louis to Chicago? Tesla Model 3 vs eTron, which would you choose? And when will the answer become “eTron, because EA has a sufficient network?”
     
  16. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Active Member

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    Incorrect. The e-Tron charges almost exactly as fast as the S/X, and the EQC is considerably slower. Never mind the Model 3 beats all of the handedly...

     
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  17. Tony8489

    Tony8489 Member

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    This last video was a much better analysis of time spent charging vs. km of range added. It was also helpful showing Model 3 and Taycan in more detail, with Model 3 being the clear cut winner in time spent charging vs. km of range added.

    It showed Model X and etron about the same. He never said whether the Model X was Raven or 100D though. The first video was Raven and my calculations showed Model X was adding about 10% more miles/minute than etron.
     
  18. UTMB

    UTMB Member

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    Again, most people will charge their vehicle at home, or at their apartment. The efficiency of the vehicle will prove much more relevant than charge times because charging will take place at night, and when you’re sharing chargers or rotating charge sessions (e.g. Mon., Wed, Fri.) with neighbors,you will want it to maximize travel per kilowatt hour, especially during winter. OK, short charge times would also help in community/shared charging situations, but this conversation, like so many Porsche/Audi vs Tesla ones, ignores the real rate limiting step, the speed of the charger itself. And the elephant in the room is really the simple availability of these fast chargers. EA isn’t close to making widespread fast charging available in the US.
     
  19. Uncle Paul

    Uncle Paul Active Member

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    To Tesla's credit, they have implemented a new technology that preconditions battery pack to optimize charging speeds if the driver selects a Supercharger as their Navigation destination.

    Gives faster charging and faster throughput without building any more Superchargers or faster charging systems.

    Most of the competitors claim marketing superiority, but will be interesting to see how everything sorts out when the rubber meets the road..and the marketing people slink back into their holes.

    My new Raven charges much faster than my earlier X75. Range and charging speeds have remarkably improved. Also have noticed lots of new Supercharger locations, unavailable last year.

    Competitors have released great specifications, but have yet been unable to unroll them to the public.

    More hype from the Germans. They have lost all credibility with their Diesel scams.
     
  20. dgatwood

    dgatwood Member

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    You must be using V2 supercharger speeds. With a V3 supercharger, even my 2017 Model X can do 26% to 90% in about 40 minutes (160 kW/481 MPH peak charging speed), which should mean about 50 minutes from 10% to 90%, give or take. The Raven refresh version (with 200kW peak charging) ought to be about five minutes faster than that, even.
     

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