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Destination Charging

Discussion in 'Charging Standards and Infrastructure' started by rsanchez, Jan 27, 2014.

  1. rsanchez

    rsanchez Member

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    Can someone explain to me the logic of the supercharger network only supporting trip charging rather than destination charging? Sure there's a fairly large EV charging network out there (Blink, Chargepoint, etc). But take a trip from Phoenix to San Diego with the proposed Superchargers being live (Yuma, Gila Bend, El Centro etc). Sure you can now make it to San Diego, but you're not going to make it round trip from the last charging point (El Centro) to your destination, any destination driving, and back again most of the time. Is Tesla just assuming their SuperCharging-enabled customers will just figure out someway of charging when they get there, wherever that may be?
     
  2. yobigd20

    yobigd20 Well-Known Member

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    Bc if you put superchargers within the cities, everyone will use those for daily charging instead of charging at home.
     
  3. Larry Chanin

    Larry Chanin Model S Perf Sig 1055

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    #3 Larry Chanin, Jan 27, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2014
    Yes. In preserving limited financial resources it makes sense to initially invest in Superchargers between destinations and install less expensive overnight charging at destinations.

    From the Supercharger web page:

    Larry
     
  4. airj1012

    airj1012 Active Member

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    Great question and answer. I wonder if they'll add any of those HPWCs to a map or if it'll just have to be common knowledge. I think someone received feedback that Tesla was also planning on putting HPWCs on the main routes in between superchargers just in case.
     
  5. Lump

    Lump Active Member

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    #5 Lump, Jan 27, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2014
    Currently we are expected to find a place to charge at our destination, resources like plugshare & recargo list charging sites in cities so its really not that hard & kind of fun figuring out where I need to charge...here are a few options from Recargo there is also a Tesla Service Center if all else fails, who knows maybe Tesla might add another Supercharger closer to San Diego on that route.
     
  6. AMPd

    AMPd Active Member

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    yes
    San diego has lots of places to charge.
     
  7. gnelson

    gnelson Member

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    It would be great if some of the larger destination cities had CHAdeMO available. Some of us Houston are planning to buy a CHAdeMO adapter and share it for road trips. Unfortunately there aren't too many chargers available. They are available in Houston, but that is not a destination for me.
     
  8. Larry Chanin

    Larry Chanin Model S Perf Sig 1055

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    Overnight destination charging is a pet peeve of mine. I believe that it is nearly as important as the Supercharger network. What I find extremely frustrating is that resorts and hotels don't seem to know their own enlightened self-interest...YET. Many of those few hotels that have overnight charging don't even have that information listed on the various charger location websites, nor do they have it listed on their hotel home page. They are simply clueless, but not as clueless as those proprietors that haven't even had the foresight to install chargers in the first place.

    If Tesla is subsidizing the installation of an HPWC charging network, my guess is that they will invest the minimal effort in advertising that fact by publishing maps, listing them on locating websites, etc.

    As we know High Power Wall Connectors are propietary to Model Ss. Those destinations that are most likely to be interested in the Model S' demographic are luxury resorts and hotels. My guess that is where Tesla will devote its initial outreach efforts. After congestion develops at Supercharger stations, it might make economic sense to add HPWCs there to permit owners to vacate the Supercharger when topping off. In other words, have signage encouraging owners to use the HPWCs when charging above 80%.

    For the most part Tesla seems to prefer to handle these sort of infrastructure development efforts with in-house resources. However, in this particular case I think it would be wise to rely on established local firms that specialize in planning and installing EVSEs. These firms could act as Tesla's agents in distributing the HPCWs along with offering other generic charging solutions that would appeal to hotels/resorts that want to attract the widest range of owners of plug-in vehicles, or who wish to collect revenue to offset the installation and operating costs. These local EVSE firms would be much more effective in outreach than Tesla who would only be offering a single propietary charging option that is not going to be attractive to many prospective host destinations.

    Larry
     
  9. TexasEV

    TexasEV Active Member

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    There's not a good reason for hotels to have J1772 charging stations to attract a wide range of EVs, because people aren't usually going to stay at a hotel if the destination is within the limited range of an EV that is not a Tesla. The HPWC is inexpensive compared to most J1772s (a 14-50 is even cheaper) and would be of use to the vast majority of people who choose their hotel based on availability of charging. Today and for the next few years at least that's just Tesla owners.
     
  10. Larry Chanin

    Larry Chanin Model S Perf Sig 1055

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    #10 Larry Chanin, Jan 27, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2014
    I'm afraid I don't follow your logic. Nissan is aggressively rolling out CHAdeMO fast chargers which faciliates travel and surely Leaf owners would like destination charging. Even hybrid plug-ins like to plug in at their destination particularly if the charging is for free.

    With regard to the cost of the HPWC, in this situation the economics are even better than the already inexpensive HPWC since Tesla is giving them away for free or discounting the cost. Nevertheless as you point out for now HPCWs are limited just to Tesla owners and that is what the proprietors of the prospective destinations will be thinking when Tesla attempts to begin the roll-out of this proprietary network. Surely some hosts will go for it, but many will want additional non-proprietary options even if they accept the HPWC.

    Don't get me wrong I am a big supporter of this Tesla initiative and I have sent out a mass mailing to close to 300 of our club membership informing them that this opportunity is available to certain business owners. I just think it would be more effective if an experienced local EVSE installer approached prospective host locations with the HPWC offer along with other generic options.

    Larry
     
  11. cwerdna

    cwerdna Active Member

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    Aggressively? As a Leaf lessee (w/a CHAdeMO port) and someone who's been following the Leaf since before it went on sale, they're (unfortunately) not doing so great in that regard, it seems. And, their communications about pending stations has been not good and those that have become operational are virtually nil. :(

    Take a look at My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - Nissan To Install 500 More Quick Charge Stations the couple of pages of posts that follow it for the gist of what's going on.

    It really is too bad. :(
     
  12. rsanchez

    rsanchez Member

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    Cool, so limit it, or just charge for it. Even the Blink network fees are pretty realistic.

    The reality is, sure there's plenty of places to charge in large cities (San Diego), but take frequent vacation destination places, like Telluride/Durango Colorado. You can easily get there thanks to the newly installed SuperChargers, but you're out of luck when it comes time to charge there. I've met a lot of resistance when calling or e-mailing hotels to ask if they even have a regular outlet.

    I don't expect Tesla to build the entire EV charging network, but I don't get why they aren't planning to install SuperChargers in obviously large metro areas.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I can't wait for the CHAdeMO adapter to come out! I check the Tesla Store website nearly every day.
     
  13. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    As far as I know, the idea is that at a destination you are likely to be there several hours so Supercharging rates aren't required. Of course, it would be much better if HPWCs or ChaDeMo EVSEs were available rather than 30 amp EVSEs. I believe Tesla has a plan to partially subsidize HPWCs for businesses, but it hasn't really gotten of the ground yet.
     
  14. djp

    djp Roadster 2.0 VIN939

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    The Clipper Creek CS-100/80 is the ideal destination charger. Compatible with Leafs and Roadsters, and charges the Model S at the full 80A. Plus it's less than a tenth of the cost to install than CHAdeMO or a SuperCharger.
     
  15. Cottonwood

    Cottonwood Roadster#433, Model S#S37

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    I agree, but a small correction, the current CS-100 is limited to 75 Amps.

    It's an interesting tradeoff. The HPWC is less expensive than the CS-100, but with installation added, the % difference is far less. OTOH, going J-1772 now is mostly for show; the only other long distance EV is the Roadster. Maybe, we just need an MS to Roadster adapter for Roadster charging from HPWC's. :wink:

    The 14-50 is still the least expensive overnight choice!
     
  16. wycolo

    wycolo Active Member

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    > I've met a lot of resistance when calling or e-mailing hotels to ask if they even have a regular outlet. [rsanchez]

    By that you mean ideally a 14-50 outlet. These may be presently viewed as an RV-only accessory rather than something *very useful* for Tesla owners/customers. Also need to speak with manager or even owner/franchisee as installing one would be a project in itself, although not really that expensive. If you will *really* become a customer at a particular location then by all means do a full PR Press for such an installation. Explain that CARS can plug into a 14-50 outlet and definitely wish to do so, 40 amps being nothing to sneeze at.

    By now you'd think that towns like Telluride would have some sort of Level 2 public charging to serve as a supplement to the out-of-town Tesla SCs.
    --
     
  17. gnelson

    gnelson Member

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    The charger may not be expensive but the 100 amp circuit for it is. Also many Model S would need to be retrofitted with twin chargers to charge at 80 amps. I didn't pay extra for the twin chargers because the only place I could have received an advantage was at the Austin Tesla Store. I don't need to charge quickly in Houston. 80 amp Clipper Creeks are not abundant in the Southern part of the US. There are currently more CHAdeMO chargers available, and they don't require twin chargers.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The charger may not be expensive but the 100 amp circuit for it is. Also many Model S would need to be retrofitted with twin chargers to charge at 80 amps. I didn't pay extra for the twin chargers because the only place I could have received an advantage was at the Austin Tesla Store. I don't need to charge quickly in Houston. 80 amp Clipper Creeks are not abundant in the Southern part of the US. There are currently more CHAdeMO chargers available, and they don't require twin chargers.
     
  18. djp

    djp Roadster 2.0 VIN939

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    Not anymore, Clipper Creek updated their firmware to support full 80A. The 100/80 model presents a 70A pilot signal by default to be compatible with Leafs. If you hit the Start button twice it switches to an 80A pilot.

    You can make the same argument against destination HPWCs. The last quote I saw for CHAdeMO was $50,000, which is a lot more than a 100A circuit. Most hotels are on commercial power so a high amp circuit isn't tough to install.

    Over the long term I think we'll see more high amp L2 than CHAdeMO simply because of the cost difference. The Sun Country Highway network in Canada is an great example of how fast and easily this can be built.
     
  19. scaesare

    scaesare Active Member

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    Well, I believe there's some logic and business driver behind the choices, but in short, yes.. Tesla believes that destination charging will be handled by other means. This is in their Supercharger FAQ Section:

    As for the logic: The idea is that at destinations, you have the opportunity to be plugged in for extended periods in one location (i.e. overnight at your hotel), and so existing infrastructure can be modified to accommodate this.... that is many hotels can add a few 50 amp circuits in their parking area...

    There are probably lots of reasons why simply plopping sets of superchargers in the middle of urban areas might not work with the existing model. That's not to say there may not eventually be some Tesla-provided fast charging there as well, but even then it's in everybody's best interests to have as many charging endpoints within destination cities as possible...
     
  20. TexasEV

    TexasEV Active Member

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    The HPWC doesn't have to be installed on a 100A circuit. Anything from 50A to 100A circuit is ok. While the 100A circuit is preferable for those with dual chargers, the reality is most Teslas don't have dual chargers and that charge rate isn't needed if charging is being done overnight. Most of us do fine charging at 40A at home overnight. A HPWC attached to a 50A circuit is the most economical solution for a hotel (even if they're paying full price) except for a 14-50, and would benefit the vast majority of today's potential EV customers.
     

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