Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Destination Charging

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Aggressively? As a Leaf lessee (w/a CHAdeMO port) and someone who's been following the Leaf since before it went on sale, they're (unfortunately) not doing so great in that regard, it seems. And, their communications about pending stations has been not good and those that have become operational are virtually nil. :(

Take a look at My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - Nissan To Install 500 More Quick Charge Stations the couple of pages of posts that follow it for the gist of what's going on.

It really is too bad. :(

You and I can disagree on the word "aggressive", but what is obvious by that conversation that you reference is that Nissan management is serious about expanding their fast charging network. Your difference in outlook appears to be merely how those locations are communicated to the public.

Here's a screen shot of a Plugshare map showing 9 CHAdeMO chargers spread across Florida. You may not consider that "aggressive" but if the data is correct those installations certainly facilitate travel by Leaf owners.

Florida Fast Chargers.jpg


To return to the point that I was making, I was responding to the following remarks:

There's not a good reason for hotels to have J1772 charging stations to attract a wide range of EVs, because people aren't usually going to stay at a hotel if the destination is within the limited range of an EV that is not a Tesla.

I was saying that Leaf owners, just like Model S owners, desire destination charging. Do you disagree?

Thanks.

Larry
 
Last edited:
> I've met a lot of resistance when calling or e-mailing hotels to ask if they even have a regular outlet. [rsanchez]

By that you mean ideally a 14-50 outlet. These may be presently viewed as an RV-only accessory rather than something *very useful* for Tesla owners/customers. Also need to speak with manager or even owner/franchisee as installing one would be a project in itself, although not really that expensive. If you will *really* become a customer at a particular location then by all means do a full PR Press for such an installation. Explain that CARS can plug into a 14-50 outlet and definitely wish to do so, 40 amps being nothing to sneeze at.

By now you'd think that towns like Telluride would have some sort of Level 2 public charging to serve as a supplement to the out-of-town Tesla SCs.
--

I hear you. I was hoping to just have access to a normal 120V outlet, I've called several Mountain Village hotels and though they scam you for $25.00 a night for overnight parking, "none" have a 120V plug that I could use to charge. Even charging at 2-3MPH over 3-4 days would be enough to get back down the mountain and get to the Farmington SuperCharger. Vail/Beaver Creek on the other hand seem to have it figured out! All of the public parking garages I saw there had EV charging - yet none allowed overnight parking.

- - - Updated - - -

Aren't most of these chargers at Nissan dealerships? Can you access them after hours?
You and I can disagree on the word "aggressive", but what is obvious by that conversation that you reference is that Nissan management is serious about expanding their fast charging network. Your difference in outlook appears to be merely how those locations are communicated to the public.

Here's a screen shot of a Plugshare map showing 9 CHAdeMO chargers spread across Florida. You may not consider that "aggressive" but if the data is correct those installations certainly facilitate travel by Leaf owners.

View attachment 42025

To return to the point that I was making, I was responding to the following remarks:



I was saying that Leaf owners, just like Model S owners, desire destination charging. Do you disagree?

Thanks.

Larry
 
Aren't most of these chargers at Nissan dealerships? Can you access them after hours?

Yes, most if not all are Nissan dealerships that are usually available during business hours.

To clarify, I'm not trying to make the point that Leafs and Nissan fast chargers are equivalent to Model Ss and Superchargers.

I'm just trying to make the simple point that Leaf owners and other non-Tesla plug-ins would appreciate having chargers available at destinations and that hotel management would be more receptive to charging solutions that offer generic chargers for a wide selection of EVs in addition to proprietary HPWCs for just Model Ss.

Larry
 
Larry, I disagree. I just don't see the value to a hotel for installing a level 2 charger rather than a HPWC now in most of the country. Even with Chademo stations being installed at Nissan dealers, the Leaf just isn't going to have mainstream use as a long-distance car except perhaps in the Pacific Northwest where there is a high concentration of stations. There aren't many areas where Chademo is available at minimum 70 mile intervals and where there are, how many people are going to want to spend 30 min at a Nissan dealer for every hour of driving? Given that level 2 chargers are more expensive than HPWC, and the vast majority of long-distance EV travel will be in Tesla for the next few years, I think hotels would get the most bang for the buck by installing HPWC. If they spend twice as much on level 2 chargers will they get twice the business? Very unlikely. Their initial reaction may be to not want the proprietary charger, but if it's explained to them they should see the cost/benefit favors the HPWC.

Also the difference is if a Leaf owner doesn't have a hotel with charging at the end of a 200 mile trip (that would require 2 Chademo charges along the way), he'll just use their other car for the trip. The Tesla owner would pick a different hotel.
 
I've been posting to SeekingAlpha about this subject, and this post is particularly apropos for this thread. However, since it is a part of a different conversation, please forgive the fact that it seems a bit out of place:

====
Tesla's Supercharger apparently uses the same J1772-DC protocol as the SAE CCS system. Tesla was part of the SAE standards body. However, Tesla disagreed on the design of the Combo adapter and further, Tesla needed to ship cars well in advance of the finalized Combo adapter specification. Therefore, Superchargers are SAE J1772-DC fast chargers, but with a different connector head.
We can see several ramifications. First, the major cost of installation of a fast DC charging station is not in the actual connector head. Replacing the connector head is likely a <$500 part in volume, assuming the replacement of the entire cable and not accounting for labor. However, the charging standard issue is that Tesla has cars on the road with a specific connector. Given that hardly any SAE CCS chargers are deployed anywhere in the world and the business case for spending $50k to $200k to establish such stations for a 3rd party is likely daunting, it is likely that Tesla could make a case to replace SAE's Combo adapter with Tesla's J1772-DC Supercharger connector. Whether or not there would be licensing fees is obviously conjecture... maybe a small fee?
As for CHAdeMO, the problem is that huge numbers of CHAdeMO installations outside of the west coast are at Nissan dealerships. Which is one of the worst places to go for a charge on a road trip. Not truly conducive at all for enabling transport. High speed DC chargers are really only needed along major transportation routes to enable inter-city travel. Everywhere else needs L2 destination charging which, in the U.S. should be 30A to 80A J1772 AC charging. If you need high speed DC charging for intracity travel, you are doing it wrong, because the economics of the charging stations won't work out. Since Nissan only has a small short range urban vehicle for sale, the placement of CHAdeMO installations usually favors locations that are not useful for inter-city travel. Further, CHAdeMO usually means charging at 45 kW, which is a far cry from 105 or 120 kW one gets from a Tesla Supercharger. That makes all the difference when we are talking about inter-city travel. If we are talking about charging at a hotel or at home, 10 kW is more than enough and the challenge at a hotel is getting many 10 kW chargers, not a few 45 kW chargers.
For the other car manufacturers, as long as they are bothering with plug in hybrids, they are not as likely to embark on establishing a strong L3 charging network. The only highly motivated source of funds to implement a strong L3 charging network is likely a car manufacturer, as the government and 3rd parties are not likely to find the business case compelling on a wide scale. Nissan is spending significant capital establishing a weak L3 charging network, but they are usually installing it in the wrong places and they currently have a car that is not as useful at utilizing a L3 charging network anyways. In other words, until they have a 200 mile car that is charging at double the current CHAdeMO charging rate, they are likely still doing it wrong for the U.S. market.
That leaves Tesla alone as the entity firmly interested in establishing a strong L3 charging network and the only entity with a product that can leverage it. So it's not really a technology problem, but a business case and management outlook problem. Therefore, there is no incentive at the moment for Tesla to adopt the CCS plug as they are the only ones installing 100+ kW L3 charging and the only ones with a product that can use it. So move forward a few years, and it is likely that Tesla is still the only ones that broke through the chicken and egg issue and therefore the other auto manufacturers will either have to finally choose to establish CCS along the same routes as the Superchargers or gain access to the Tesla Supercharger network in some manner. The latter becomes very interesting for Tesla if they care to leverage it.
===

So, for this thread, the main issue is that destination charging a Tesla Model S is where you would charge for many hours. At 200V/80A, the Model S with dual chargers is full in 5 hours from empty. At 40A, pretty much any Model S is full overnight. It costs roughly $2-7k per EVSE to install high amperage L2 EVSE and is far more economical than L3 by an order of magnitude. This also makes sure that the biggest burden of energy usage is borne by owners and is consumed at night at off peak hours (higher mix of nuclear, hydro, and wind power). It is actually more convenient than a supercharger inside the city would be, both from having many more L2's available, possibly at the exact destination and the entire queueing problem. It makes sense to leave the car overnight at a slower L2 than it makes sense at many destinations to come back 30-50 minutes later.

Therefore, the big issue is getting many more 40-80A J1772's installed at locations that matter most to us. That should be hotels as #1. At the very least, available L1's would take some of the immediate pressure off - if I am staying at a resort for 2-5 days, it is likely that even an L1 will fully charge the car. That's why airports don't need even L2 charging.
 
Last edited:
Larry, I disagree. I just don't see the value to a hotel for installing a level 2 charger rather than a HPWC now in most of the country. Even with Chademo stations being installed at Nissan dealers, the Leaf just isn't going to have mainstream use as a long-distance car except perhaps in the Pacific Northwest where there is a high concentration of stations. There aren't many areas where Chademo is available at minimum 70 mile intervals and where there are, how many people are going to want to spend 30 min at a Nissan dealer for every hour of driving? Given that level 2 chargers are more expensive than HPWC, and the vast majority of long-distance EV travel will be in Tesla for the next few years, I think hotels would get the most bang for the buck by installing HPWC. If they spend twice as much on level 2 chargers will they get twice the business? Very unlikely. Their initial reaction may be to not want the proprietary charger, but if it's explained to them they should see the cost/benefit favors the HPWC.

Also the difference is if a Leaf owner doesn't have a hotel with charging at the end of a 200 mile trip (that would require 2 Chademo charges along the way), he'll just use their other car for the trip. The Tesla owner would pick a different hotel.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Whereas I readily agree with you that Tesla currently has the best case for destination charging, I seriously doubt that even Tesla would try to make the argument to hotel proprietors that they should only be installing proprietary EVSEs that are compatible only with Model Ss. Destinations are going to want to maintain their flexibility and not lock into a fixed situation based on the current EV status.

Larry
 
Last edited:
I've met a lot of resistance when calling or e-mailing hotels to ask if they even have a regular outlet.
An option to consider...

  • Good evening from the Hotel ___ in ___.
  • Good evening. I'd like to speak to someone about electrical vehicle charging options at your establishment. Can you speak to that or is a manager available?
  • Sure let me get her for you.
  • Hello. I was told you had some questions about EV charging? How can I help?
  • Yes, I'm looking to stay for a couple nights in the month of ___ and I'm wondering what accommodations you have for EVs?
  • We haven't had many requests but we do have some outlets available.
  • What kind of outlets, and are they near the parking area?
  • Hm, not near the parking area. And just normal outlets like where the TV is plugged in.
  • Do you plan on installing some outlets near the parking area? Or is it ok for me to run an extension cord to my car?
  • That sounds potentially dangerous, I'll have to check with the ...
  • Okay, I agree that's not the ideal. Would you consider installing some outlets for EV charging?
  • To give you a better answer, I'd need more information about...
  • I'm happy to send you that information. Do you have an e-mail address I can mail it to?
  • Sure it's ___. I can't make any promises but....
  • Okay great. And, just so you know, I've got a group of 10 cars that is coming through that month (for a conference) and we'll all be interested in having a place to plug-in our cars overnight. If you install at least a half-dozen 14-50 (40A) outlets (you'll see it them the e-mail) all of us are willing to include an extra $50 in our bills as a courtesy for getting those outlets installed. If not, we'll probably have to go elsewhere.
  • Wow, that's a lot to think about.
  • Yup, exciting times! I'll be sending you that email from my ___ email address. Thanks again for your time and have a nice night. I hope to see you in ___.
 
I've gotten one hostile response from a hotel: (paraphrasing) "my manager says our policy is to disallow anyone using our outdoor power outlets."

All others have at least been friendly about it, even if they couldn't accommodate me.
 
I've been posting to SeekingAlpha about this subject, and this post is particularly apropos for this thread. However, since it is a part of a different conversation, please forgive the fact that it seems a bit out of place:

...

techmaven- That was a "Wall-O-Text" to read :) , but I've posted similar thoughts about the relative value of Tesla's supercharger placement strategy as opposed to where other vendors are slowly rolling out some DC fast charging stations.

I agree that a significant growth in destination charging needs to happen as well...

Good post...
 
Here in New England, we've had some success in getting destination charging installed in ski resorts. All it takes is one to say "yes". Then you push on others: "gee, I really like skiing at your place, but ____ has EV charging, so I guess I'll be going there instead." Then the second one says "yes," and it starts to snowball.

Make sure when you stay at a place with EV charging (even a plug) to tell the manager that they are getting your business because of that fact.
 
Yesterday a store salesperson told me TMC asked the store where a few destination chargers might go. That's great news, as we do need to see more of these. My view is because they are HPWC's, it wouldn't work very well at jammed locations like ski areas. One car, all day. no help. Really out of the way locales at least 100 miles from a Supercharger seems more beneficial. To more easily get our cars deep into the wild!
 
Yesterday a store salesperson told me TMC asked the store where a few destination chargers might go. That's great news, as we do need to see more of these. My view is because they are HPWC's, it wouldn't work very well at jammed locations like ski areas. One car, all day. no help. Really out of the way locales at least 100 miles from a Supercharger seems more beneficial. To more easily get our cars deep into the wild!

A couple of clarifying questions, if I may:

1) By "TMC" I assume you mean Tesla Motors Corp., and not our gracious hosts here at Tesla Motors Club, correct?

2) When you say "a store", was this a Tesla Gallery? Was the intent where the GALLERY might be able to accommodate some chargers, or where in the nearby area some chargers might be installed?

Thanks for the report...
 
2) When you say "a store", was this a Tesla Gallery? Was the intent where the GALLERY might be able to accommodate some chargers, or where in the nearby area some chargers might be installed?

Thanks for the report...
Only Virginia and a few other states controlled by the auto dealers cartel have Tesla Galleries. The rest of the country has Tesla Stores where cars can be sold like any other legal product. Still need clarification from the OP but he's from Colorado where there is no such thing as a Tesla Gallery.
 
Only Virginia and a few other states controlled by the auto dealers cartel have Tesla Galleries. The rest of the country has Tesla Stores...

Ah yes true, thanks...I'm just used to calling them that here. :/

To be clear, I'm not taking issue with what the Tesla locations are called, but as TexasEV reiterates, I'm trying to confirm if the intent was to host the chargers at a store location, or if the intent was to get ideas from the store about nearby areas that would be good spots for destination chargers...
 
A couple of clarifying questions, if I may:

1) By "TMC" I assume you mean Tesla Motors Corp., and not our gracious hosts here at Tesla Motors Club, correct?

2) When you say "a store", was this a Tesla Gallery? Was the intent where the GALLERY might be able to accommodate some chargers, or where in the nearby area some chargers might be installed?

Thanks for the report...

Yes, the Park Meadows "Store". TMC is short for the company. Maybe TM is better ... or Tesla Motors.
 
It's been a while since I posted in this thread but had a ridiculous experience in San Diego this weekend. There's tons of public charging locations but they're way too slow or wrongly used. A company called cars2go has cars spread out throughout the city and insists on blocking all charging locations.

Regardless, superchargers are a necessity in big cities, particularly tourist destinations. The argument that they will be abused seems pretty faulty at this point.
 
had a ridiculous experience in San Diego this weekend. There's tons of public charging locations but they're way too slow or wrongly used. A company called cars2go has cars spread out throughout the city and insists on blocking all charging locations.

thats very much not cool. are they plugged in or just ICEing the spot? according to Car2Go - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia they exclusively Smart Fortwo vehicle , and for san diego they are all the electric version. thats not cool if one company blocks all the public chargers across the city. the should be fined hardcore for doing so.