For reference, the Fiat Group inc. Chrysler is producing more than a billion cars a year
Um.
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For reference, the Fiat Group inc. Chrysler is producing more than a billion cars a year
Have you ever heard of TCO? Doesn't sound like it. Also BMW's electric offering is a clown car. If the price is anywhere near the Model S in Europe, only a fool would buy it.I do not want to go that much off topic here as the carbon footprint of electric cars has already been discussed over and over again.
In case of the Tesla supercharger there is one important aspect that just seems to be ignored.
Due to the fixed resistance of the battery (impedance) and the basic relation of P=I^2xR your charging losses will rise exponentially in relation to the power you are using. I have no specific data on the Supercharger but even tesla cannot rewrite the laws of physics. At least they recommend not using the Supercharger all the time due to balance issues on the battery. Still, with the Supercharger your charging losses will be at least 3 times higher than on your standard 24A solution at home.
I find it pretty interesting that Tesla is only planning to install a few Superchargers in Europe.
Just a few points on an objective Observation for the Model S with implications on market chances in Europe.
The Model S is a 100.000 Euro car with almost no active safety features (for example lane assist, collision warning, emergency stopping etc….) It does also have rear seats which are really not acceptable for any person taller than a 12 year old kid. The acceleration is indeed excellent but it’s range is not. A 300hp Audi A6 TDI is no lame duck with 0-60 in 5s. Yet it’s much cheaper and has a range well above 1000km. You just cannot get into your Model S and drive with it from Munich to Hamburg. Any petrol or diesel car will cover far distances much faster than a Model S.
So it’s still a car that only applies to a very small audience. As a performance car no european customer will take the Model S serious as you can neither go on the track nor can you go faster than 210 kph despite its lively acceleration. And this speed does matter here. People who buy a M5 just want to be faster than anyone else. Also BMW is now putting it's own electric line up on sale now in Europe. I cannot imagine Tesla beeing able to compete with this guys here.
I admit that the demand for the Model S in the US really took me by surprise. Almost 5000 cars on one quarter is truly astonishing. Yet I just don’t think that you can expect that kind of demand outside the US. Keeping that level of domestic demand will also be difficult because this is still a car priced in the 100.000$ range, no matter how good people think it is.
...you can fill up your car at every gas station.
I'm interested to hear the views of a short and believe those views will be interesting on-going even though it is tough to hear at times. Although shorts have a vested interest in the tech failing we should be diligent to keep on topic as emotions will run high. Boiling down the short points is of high interest to me, not to debunk, but to fully understand and setup milestones which will either be proven, disproven or just partially realized/unrealized.
But there is a big difference between shorts having points rooted in facts vs. just trying to stir emotions.
I think BMW is a very serious threat for Tesla. In Europe certainly.
The BMW i3 is in fact very close to the so called Tesla Gen3 model. It’s range is about 150km and with the range extender it’s close to 500 with the big advantage that you can fill up your car at every gas station.
....it is the same with the Model S. It’s obviously a great thing but there is still the problem that you get a vehicle with very limited range. Very limited because you can travel app. 400-500km and then you need to charge it for hours.
The rear seats are way too small.....
....and don’t forget that without tax incentives it is hugely expensive.
If electric cars indeed become viable Tesla will face severe competition. You already see GM launching cars like the Chevy Spark (which is quite astonishing for the money). Tesla cannot totally control the supply base. Their battery cells are Japanese. Toyota and Honda will come up with their own solutions if the electric car will move further, which is still a big question mark.
But there is a big difference between shorts having points rooted in facts vs. just trying to stir emotions. You can similarly take investment advise from Glen Beck and Michael Moore if you want. I wouldn't recommend it...
I would listen to someone who says:
"I've made some measurements and SuperChargers isn't financially viable to Tesla. They cost $100 per charge. Here is how..."
vs. what effectively boils down to:
"Elon is running a pyramid stock scheme and lying to investors about sales and the cost of SuperChargers. I have no proof, but you guys are all delusional if you think he's not."
Again honestly.
I have been trading stocks and equities for a living for more than 7 years but cars are my passion. I think what Tesla has done is truly remarkable. I can only repeat that!
Still, people tend to overlook the facts and the current market cap of Tesla is just insane for a car company of that size. I don't want to attack anyone here just telling you my assumptions.
Still, with the Supercharger your charging losses will be at least 3 times higher than on your standard 24A solution at home.
I have always said that the Model S is too expensive to produce. Tesla is not making any real money at the moment despite their Model S exceeding sales targets.
Elon Musk very ambitious sales targets are visionary at best.
I have always said that the Model S is too expensive to produce. Tesla is not making any real money at the moment despite their Model S exceeding sales targets.
Elon Musk very ambitious sales targets are visionary at best.
I have not talked about the resistance of the chargers! Read my post!
The resistance of the battery is fixed! That was all I was talking about. Just accept it, Tesla's supercharger is not Magic. They cannot redefine the laws of physics.
I'm aware of the physics. How about you put actual data in a post and quantify the efficiency losses with numbers? Frankly I'm not even sure of your point, so what if occasional supercharging is a little less efficient than normal charging, which is what most people will do 99% of the time?You obviously don't get the point. Have you ever used a Supercharger? The massive heat increase is a clear sign for serious charge losses. This is basic physic and it's explained here:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/18189-You-might-consider-charging-slower
You summed it up pretty nicely. Once you drive the car, you begin to see that the above makes even more sense.Much of the discussion topics raised by Realist are just nonsense, such as charging inefficiencies, pricing, "inadequate range" and this issues relation to supercharging and swapping, how BMW or [insert any other car manufacturer in the world] will soon have better offerings.
On his part, and also to some extent on "our" part, to debate these issues is really just a pseudo-debate since we will never agree on any of this as much of it is subjective, and we have already made up our minds about the only real and important issues and this colors our opinion on these "pseudo-issues" extensively. The real and defining issues of course are:
- Are electric cars going to replace cars based on internal combustion engines as the main form of personal transport? [Yes]
- Is this transition going to take place faster than most would believe? [Yes] (This is a disruptive technology, make no mistake about it, and we as humans are not intuitively capable of seeing when we are at the beginning of an exponential growth curve pattern - it looks flat or linear at first and then it "explodes")
- Is another technology, for example natural gas cars or hydrogen fuel-cell cars (with EV drive train) going to prove better and steal EV's thunder? [No]
- The above three questions answered gives you a definite answer to the third important question: Does Tesla have a growing market in the years to come [Yes]
- Is Tesla years ahead of all competition in this field [Yes] (I have yet to see proof of anything to contradict this)
- Does Tesla's track record show that they can keep up the pace and hence keep up their lead? [Yes - at least for years to come] (In the long run Tesla risks becoming a less agile, inflexible and stagnant giant, much like AAPL, GM, FORD etc. etc. but this is in a way inevitable and not really the issue here).
So I repeat: Alea iacta est. Place your bets.
Due to the fixed resistance of the battery (impedance) and the basic relation of P=I^2xR your charging losses will rise exponentially in relation to the power you are using. I have no specific data on the Supercharger but even tesla cannot rewrite the laws of physics.