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Dieselgate

Discussion in 'Energy, Environment, and Policy' started by mspohr, Sep 18, 2018.

  1. mspohr

    mspohr Well-Known Member

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  2. mspohr

    mspohr Well-Known Member

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    Update on continuing fallout (in Germany) from Dieselgate.
    You thought Dieselgate was over? It’s not.

    Six VW executives in prison. Political influence waning. German diesel owners are upset and want compensation.
    The threat of driving bans is already causing the market share of diesel vehicles to collapse. In the first half of 2017, over 41 percent of new cars in Germany were diesel. This year the number went down to 32 percent, according to new research by the University of Duisburg-Essen.
     
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  3. SageBrush

    SageBrush 2020: Drain the Sewer

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    I'm glad to hear that diesel cars are dropping in sales but it is an eye opener to read that revenue at VW is booming.
    It is not just Americans that have the collective memory of a mosquito.
     
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  4. NoPetrolDream

    NoPetrolDream Fandango

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    Why all the dishonesty about diesel emissions? Perhaps an ugly truth that diesel powered engines cannot get any "cleaner" without radical enhancements that reduce performance, resulting in less sales? A tacit admission via cover-up/cheating software? Added to now via potential collusion among competitors not to compete among one another for lower emissions?

    Each time I am reminded of dieselgate I am also reminded how weak the argument is that electric cars are worse for the environment than diesel vehicles. Yes, the manufacturing of the car and batteries incurs emissions and pollution, as also applies to ICE vehicle and battery manufacturing. The departure is in tailpipe emissions over the operating life of the car. There can never be an ICE vehicle, gasoline or diesel powered, that can even hope to approach the emission profile of an electric vehicle going down the road.
     
  5. arnis

    arnis Member

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    Something Dieselgate panicking people should actually listen. Listen very very carefully.
     
  6. mspohr

    mspohr Well-Known Member

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    TL,DR
    What's your point?
     
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  7. arnis

    arnis Member

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    There is no point I (personally) want to make.
    I want others to know about the facts of diesel vehicle pollution (intertwined with dieselgate scandal).
    TL-DR level is not acceptable in deep topics like those. Watching at faster rate is (to save time).
     
  8. SageBrush

    SageBrush 2020: Drain the Sewer

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    I'm not going to watch the video but I'll give you about 5 seconds of my time to mention the two or three 'facts' you think important.
     
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  9. nwdiver

    nwdiver Well-Known Member

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    I watched it. Here's a brief summary to save you some time.

    Leave Diesels Alone.png

    Side note: DW is a German media company so definitely unbiased.... :rolleyes:
     
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  10. mspohr

    mspohr Well-Known Member

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    Diesel and fossil fuels pollution have been studied extensively and it's all bad.
    What could a German media company add to the discussion except fake news?
     
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  11. arnis

    arnis Member

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    If critical thinking was a thing you guys were capable of doing then thinking through a very simple fact, that
    smokers inhale 10x ... 1000x more toxic chemicals (many are identical to diesel exhaust, incl PM2.5 PM10, NOx) results in life expectancy drop that does not correlate with what most blindly believe and expect with diesel exhausts (average street pollution measurements due to diesels), incl you two.

    Doubting ANY inconvenient information from any source is just a "default excuse".
    And it gets exceptionally funny when I can see similar live data on world map of air pollution stations.
    Considering that maybe all stations around the world are somehow faking data is... well, kindly said.. moronic. Close to flat-Earthers.
     
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  12. SageBrush

    SageBrush 2020: Drain the Sewer

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    #12 SageBrush, Feb 2, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
    I don't know what the concentration of PM 2.5 and NOx is in tobacco smoke, but it would seem obvious that you have to account for exposure time.

    Just a WAG -- the airways are exposed to the pollutants in tobacco for a second or two per puff. How many puffs per cigarette ? How many cigarettes per day ? Compare that to tailpipe pollution exposure 24/7.

    Addendum:
    https://cancercontrol.cancer.gov/brp/tcrb/monographs/7/m7_11.pdf
    About 20-30 seconds of inhaled exposure per cigarette.
    A PPD smoker would then be exposed to 400 -- 600 seconds a day of the 86,400 seconds in a day. That works out to ~ 150x - 200x greater exposure time to ambient pollution from tailpipe pollution. It actually makes me wonder if the tailpipe health effects are UNDER estimated, but I trust the science to be more accurate than my napkin arithmetic. One should also remember that ambient pollution compared to tobacco disproportionately affects the young when the respiratory system is more vulnerable.

    As an advocate of critical thinking, I give Arnis a fail. I recommend that he read some of the relevant scientific, peer reviewed and published epidemiology to get a clue.
     
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  13. mspohr

    mspohr Well-Known Member

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    So your argument is that there are other things worse than diesel pollution so we shouldn't worry?
     
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  14. Krugerrand

    Krugerrand Is Cat

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    Very late to this discussion. I had the exact conversation just the other day. I can’t for the life of me understand how these companies are still in business. WTH is wrong with people? We’ve been purposely lied to for decades, there’s evidence of VW hooking people up to tailpipes to study the effects!!!!! Why are people still buying from these robber barons and scum sucking, lying parasites. It’s like we have a death wish or really are just that stupid of a species as a whole.
     
  15. arnis

    arnis Member

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    Well, this is also a fail in terms of critical thinking. Watch the DW research again. It has been clearly stated, that pollution
    levels fluctuate heavily from location to location and this is why some stations measure numbers above accepted, and others not. Intersections have much higher numbers than roads where vehicles pass with stable burning cycle (contant engine load).
    Having gas heater or making food in the kitchen creates much more pollution indoors than it is outdoor right next to busy intersection.


    One of the arguments (not with that video) is that scrapping vehicles that are already produced makes more harm than good.
    VW vehicles do pollute 40x more than promised, but that is still not enough to actually reduce life expectancy in any significant amount.
     
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  16. mspohr

    mspohr Well-Known Member

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    Real scientists would beg to differ:
    Basic Information about NO2 | US EPA
    2. How does Nitrogen Dioxide (NO2) affect human health?
    Both cross-sectional and longitudinal studies indicate an association between NO2 and lung function. The Southern California Children’s Study showed that lung function levels among 9 to 16 year old children were lower in communities with higher NO2 concentration (236). Lung function growth, evaluated in a longitudinal study, was also impaired among these children (22, 23). The NO2 effect in the cohort study was robust when other pollutants (e.g.PM10 and O3) were included in the statistical model, but weakened when acid vapours (including NO2 derived nitric acid) were simultaneously considered. The cross-sectional SAPALDIA Study in Switzerland (93, 392) gives support to the association of NO2exposure and lung function decrements among adults.

    Two cross-sectional studies among children (79, 393) provide some evidence of an association between NO2 and acute bronchitis, while the Southern California Children’s Study suggested that chronic respiratory symptoms (cough and phlegm) were more frequent among children with asthma in communities with higher NO2 exposure (88). Two cross-sectional studies found an association between NO2 and cough and phlegm symptoms in adults (94, 394).

    Department of the Environment and Energy


    Nitrogen Dioxide
    Looking beyond the lungs, newer research has linked NO2 to cardiovascular harm, lower birth weight in newborns and increased risk of premature death.4

    Putting a price on NOx health impacts
    At the heart of the VW revelations are tests for exhaust emissions of nitrogen oxides. These are a family of pollutants that become dominated by nitrogen dioxide as they mix in the air, causing most UK cities and towns to exceed World Health Organisation guidelines.

    Defra estimates that the UK death rate is 4% higher due to nitrogen dioxide pollution – around 23,500 extra deaths per year. This has a massive cost to society – around £13bn per year or 0.7% of our gross domestic product.

    This is a lot of money, but what does it mean for the average driver? Assuming official exhaust test limits, a 10-year-old diesel car driven in a big city for the UK annual average mileage of 10,700 miles has a health impact of £196 per year. For the latest technology diesel, this should be £63.
    However, the pollution from cars in the real world is very different to the official tests. In road tests a typical 10-year-old diesel car produces nearly four times more nitrogen oxides than expected – an annual health cost of around £790 for an extra car in a big city.

    Latest technology diesel cars emit, on average, seven times their test emissions when used on the road – an annual health cost of around £440 for an extra car. For a modern petrol car it would be less than £35.

    Location is important too: nitrogen dioxide exhaust in typical big cities causes five times as much harm as it does in the countryside.

    VW scandal caused nearly 1m tonnes of extra pollution, analysis shows

    NOx gases in diesel car fumes: Why are they so dangerous?
    In Britain alone, known NO2 emissions have been estimated to kill 23,500 people every year, according to aerosol science professor Ian Colbeck of the University of Essex, southeastern England.

    Read more at: NOx gases in diesel car fumes: Why are they so dangerous?

    You could take your head out of the sand and just GoogleIt.
     
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  17. arnis

    arnis Member

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    This doesn't make any sense.
    50 units is 50 units no matter where these 50 units are inhaled. Of course, those who live in the countryside usually are more physically active and eat more organic food.

    mspohr,
    There is no point to read MORE of the same thing. All this is based on the same data - readings that are questionable.
    Video I added specifically talks about WHO quidelines, where does it come from and do those cities, that exceed WHO guideline, ACTUALLY exceed it in terms of people inhaling that as an average mix - people do not live few meters off the intersection at street level at the moment limit is exceeded.

    Forgot that smoking doesn't stop when smoker finishes? And that everybody breathes one cigarette, not just the smoker.
    https://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/tobaccocontrol/13/3/219.full.pdf

    And found PM values for cigarette smoke. 1500-2000mg/m3 for PM2.5 and PM10.
    WHO annual exposure limits 10 and 20 mg/m3 respectively.
    Particulate Matter in Second-Hand Smoke Emitted from Different Cigarette Sizes and Types of the Brand Vogue Mainly Smoked by Women

    And indoors levels where people smoke stay between 200-1000mg/m3 for PM2.5.
    PM2.5 as a marker of exposure to tobacco smoke and other sources of particulate matter in Cairo, Egypt

    So going slightly deeper gives some real data that correlates with DW video.
    Smoking actually has (not should have) more effect than diesel exhaust.
    Therefore such aggressive actions against diesel vehicles are hard to justify.
    Same as "let's ban diesels in US while letting mega tankers sail as usual".

    The more than 52,000 ships crisscrossing ocean trade routes will burn more than 2 billion barrels of heavy fuel oil this year. Heavy fuel oil, a crude oil byproduct, contains sulfur concentrations up to 1,800 times higher than the diesel fuel burned on U.S. highways.
    The urgency of curbing pollution from ships, explained
     
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  18. mspohr

    mspohr Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I'm done with your nonsense.
     
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  19. SageBrush

    SageBrush 2020: Drain the Sewer

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    #19 SageBrush, Feb 2, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
    No.
    Second hand smoke is diluted by the local air -- more dilution outside.
    However, second hand smoke is I think a fair analogy since most western countries allow personal choice in smoking but forbid it in public places. Same deal with diesels, if it were possible: you can suck exhaust if you wish but you cannot pollute the air of others.

    As for the heightened health effects in the city, at least part of the difference is the smog that NOx forms in combination with VOCs and part is the density of diesels and their exhaust held at ground level by buildings.

    I'm done here. I don't have any inclination to argue politics with you; I was only pointing out that the scientific literature results are reasonable.
     
  20. arnis

    arnis Member

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    Therefore I win?

    I have VOC and PM2.5 measuring devices available for use. This is incorrect. "Polluted" outside street air is cleaner than interior air if somebody already smoked lately... and DW video added even cooking or heating water with natural gas creates much worse numbers.
    I expected you can estimate, how much dilution would happen from 2000mg/m3 into a any interior room. Then compare it with live data.


    There is no smog at WHO set limits and even if those are exceeded multiple times. This is my point. Levels in Asia are mad. Levels in US and EU are totally acceptable for "short future" of 3-8 years. And those numbers are all available, live.

    Air Pollution in World: Real-time Air Quality Index Visual Map
     
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