Dieselgate

[Brando]

Why all the dishonesty about diesel emissions? Perhaps an ugly truth that diesel powered engines cannot get any "cleaner" without radical enhancements that reduce performance, resulting in less sales? A tacit admission via cover-up/cheating software? Added to now via potential collusion among competitors not to compete among one another for lower emissions?

Each time I am reminded of dieselgate I am also reminded how weak the argument is that electric cars are worse for the environment than diesel vehicles. Yes, the manufacturing of the car and batteries incurs emissions and pollution, as also applies to ICE vehicle and battery manufacturing. The departure is in tailpipe emissions over the operating life of the car. There can never be an ICE vehicle, gasoline or diesel powered, that can even hope to approach the emission profile of an electric vehicle going down the road.

lead of course very dangerous and and recycling happens, even if not perfect ~98%
Tesla Lithium Ion has no poisonous content - but materials are valuable so recycling is already planned for.
Some Li chemistries use Cd which is not good. Anyway we really should recycle much better all batteries.
Fluorescent lights which usually contain Hg (Mercury) one of the worst offenders - even on the West Coast they are almost impossible to recycle.

ANY THING a company sells, they should be forced to re-cycle - otherwise you can't sell it. what a concept
</rant>

side note: GigaFactory has closed room where solvents are collected as they evaporate off of foil coatings and the solvents are collected and reused. Solar Panels & wind generators are supposed to provide most, if not all power. We shall see.

 

[mspohr]

Good long read on dieselgate
Dirty lies: how the car industry hid the truth about diesel emissions


Now, at last, European regulators have begun requiring cars to be tested on the road, not just in the lab. But the real problem, to my mind, is even bigger: it seems clear that the flaws in European nations’ enforcement are more fundamental than the particulars of one testing method. The problem is the system itself, which is riddled with weakness and ripe for abuse. Politicians have begun, post-Dieselgate, to tighten it, but it remains a system designed under the gaze – and the lobbying pressure – of a powerful industry.


The diesel cheating scandal is in some sense a failure of innovation – yet another symptom of carmakers’ desire to stick with what they know, with the cars that reliably deliver profits. That caution is surely at the root of why European manufacturers pushed governments looking to shrink carbon footprints to turn to diesel, rather than, for example, hybrids such as those that Honda and Toyota had already put on roads by the late 1990s. With their vast resources and the marketing muscle to bring consumers along, who knows what Volkswagen and the others could have come up with. We have all paid the price for their decision not to try.

This an edited extract from Choked: The Age of Air Pollution and the Fight for a Cleaner Future by Beth Gardiner, published by Granta on 4 April a

 

[Brando]

If critical thinking was a thing you guys were capable of doing then thinking through a very simple fact, that
smokers inhale 10x ... 1000x more toxic chemicals (many are identical to diesel exhaust, incl PM2.5 PM10, NOx) results in life expectancy drop that does not correlate with what most blindly believe and expect with diesel exhausts (average street pollution measurements due to diesels), incl you two.

Doubting ANY inconvenient information from any source is just a "default excuse".
And it gets exceptionally funny when I can see similar live data on world map of air pollution stations.
Considering that maybe all stations around the world are somehow faking data is... well, kindly said.. moronic. Close to flat-Earthers.

Go to your garage, close the doors and windows - see if you pass out.
Now repeat and start up you diesel car. Let us know how many hours before you can't take it any more.
Yeah, diesels are no problem, save as cigarettes.

PS - don't try garage experiment with gasoline car, as I assume you already believe it will kill you. You'd be dead right.
So what if you die a little earlier - saving all that fuel is well worth it, right?
Sadly, when great profits/money is at stake, you can always find a few snake oil salesman to help sell it. Tobacco or oil products.
Only those who might believe scientist might think these products are really all that harmful, right?

simple fact - it can kill you, so be damn careful. and I won't let my kids play around it, if possible.

 

[arnis]

@Brando
No I will not die with modern diesel or gasoline vehicle due to toxic chemicals in the air.
Though oxygen concentration will drop and CO2 rise over time that is not toxic nor has it lasting effects.

Humans can do with 10% oxygen concentration. Engines will also stall at low oxygen levels. Soo.. it might even be a tie.
Anyway, modern vehicles do not pollute toxic fumes, especially after warm up.

 

[ggr]

@Brando
No I will not die with modern diesel or gasoline vehicle due to toxic chemicals in the air.
Though oxygen concentration will drop and CO2 rise over time that is not toxic nor has it lasting effects.

Humans can do with 10% oxygen concentration. Engines will also stall at low oxygen levels. Soo.. it might even be a tie.
Anyway, modern vehicles do not pollute toxic fumes, especially after warm up.

I would hope you're joking. You die very quickly, from CO (Carbon Monoxide) poisoning. The hemoglobin in your blood absorbs the CO instead of oxygen, but doesn't let go of it, so you die of oxygen starvation.

 

[arnis]

CO concentration is way below danger zone. And that applies to even vehicles that are from 1999.
Your information is waaay too outdated
Catalytic converter - Wikipedia

 

[Brando]

Why Are Vehicles’ Exhaust Fumes Harmful To Humans? » Science ABC

try internet search
ford explorer exhaust problems

 

[arnis]

Why Are Vehicles’ Exhaust Fumes Harmful To Humans? » Science ABC

try internet search
ford explorer exhaust problems

A lot of talk and almost zero numbers.

Users here are excessively black and white.

It is very common for people who have almost non-existent knowledge to brag on "common sense". A sense
that if "everybody else is bragging" around that it shall be true.

European emission standards - Wikipedia
Please, look at numbers. I might even find my vehicle's technical inspection summary page that contains these same numbers
(annual inspection verifying that vehicle complies to requirements of EUROnorms).


I don't argue that CO is toxic and that HC and other VOC compounds are. But concentration is way way too small for having
any noticeable effects in non-well ventilated garage or parking lot.
Maybe some people have noticed that fumes from cigarettes leave more smell and more smog in living rooms where people smoke.
Because it is literally true. One cigarette without catalytic converter and DPF will pollute more than idling vehicle during 10 minutes. Vehicle will literally consume less than a spoonful of fuel. It's not possible to create tons of toxic fumes from one spoonful of "almost candle wax", which diesel almost is.
So being inside the same room where smoker smokes likely has MORE effect than with a vehicle with running engine. It's that simple.
And the one who smokes doesn't die instantly. What a miracle.
And having dinner next to two-spoonfuls of candle wax will not kill you either.

 

[Brando]

some internet search
side note: many used cars on the road

Every year, at least 430 people die in the U.S. from accidental CO poisoning. Approximately 50,000 people in the U.S. visit the emergency department each year due to accidental CO poisoning.Jan 21, 2019

CDC - Carbon Monoxide Poisoning - Frequently Asked Questions
Asphyxial deaths caused by automobile exhaust inhalation not attributable to carbon monoxide toxicity: study of 2 cases. - PubMed - NCBI

You can easily search for your own numbers - and search for the Ford Explorer problems.
ford explorer exhaust problems

 

[arnis]

What is the point of your post?
Do you want to state that people can die if they inhale CO to?
Well, if you inhale nitrogen you will also die.
And if you inhale CO2 you will also die.
And if you inhale Helium or Argon or any other pure non toxic gas that is not oxygen... yes, you will die.

Second link is from 2002. I said "modern vehicle". Car from 1969 is not modern.

 

[mspohr]

... and the dieselgate fallout continues:

BMW, Daimler, and VW colluded to prevent better emissions control tech, EU says
On Friday, the European Union Commission accused BMW, Daimler, and Volkswagen Group (which makes VW, Audi, and Porsche vehicles) of colluding to limit emissions reduction technology in their diesel and gas vehicles.

 

[SageBrush]

Diesel ? Stick a fork in it, it is done.

 

[mspohr]

Diesel ? Stick a fork in it, it is done.

Hopefully it won't take VW, BMW, and Mercedes with it.

 

[mspohr]

33m polluting cars still on EU roads after Dieselgate scandal

33m polluting cars still on EU roads after Dieselgate scandal

More than three quarters of the 43m cars tampered with in the Dieselgate emissions test cheating scandal are still on the road four years later.

Florent Grelier, the clean vehicles engineer for Transport and Environment which conducted the analysis, said: “The current snail’s pace to clean up diesel cars across Europe is unacceptable. The industry has had four years since the diesel scandal broke but has failed to deliver even on its own commitments to fix manipulated cars.

 

[arnis]

Fact 1) All ICE vehicles are polluters.
Fact 2) (actually just an estimation, likely much more) 33m cars are already produced.
Fact 3) They can not be removed without making pollution worse.
Fact 4) The only right thing is to continue using them for best results.

 

[SageBrush]

Fact 1) All ICE vehicles are polluters.
Fact 2) (actually just an estimation, likely much more) 33m cars are already produced.
Fact 3) They can not be removed without making pollution worse.
Fact 4) The only right thing is to continue using them for best results.

Thanks for your opinion.
Any facts to back it up ?

 

[mongo]

Fact 1) All ICE vehicles are polluters.
Fact 2) (actually just an estimation, likely much more) 33m cars are already produced.
Fact 3) They can not be removed without making pollution worse.
Fact 4) The only right thing is to continue using them for best results.

#3 is not a fact, which make #4 an erroneous conclusion (not a fact either way).
You need to differentiate type and quantity of pollution. Building a car generates emissions, but those are different than a emissions violating VW, both in composition and location. Driving a smog generator in a city center is worse for people's health than a factory building a new one, especially if the new one is an EV, which your list ignores.

 

[TheTalkingMule]

Gotta agree that it's best to just leave them be once the appropriate penalty is applied to the manufacturers. There's no simple fix that I've heard of and EVs are supply constrained.

 

[mspohr]

Gotta agree that it's best to just leave them be once the appropriate penalty is applied to the manufacturers. There's no simple fix that I've heard of and EVs are supply constrained.

They really need to be fixed or taken off the road. They emit dangerous levels of particulates and NOx. Bad for health.

 

[arnis]

TThey emit dangerous levels of particulates and NOx.

How much? EVERYBODY, incl mongo and SageBrush are all proponents of this idea.
But nobody of that group have even slightest idea about what is "dangerous" or "unhealthy" level.

Fact3) total sum of weighted average of all pollutants and gases. Weighted according to known impact of any particular type.
Mostly in our case NOx and CO2.

There's no simple fix that I've heard of

Because it is not possible to travel back in time and remove environmental footprint of product THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN PRODUCED.
And this is something DieselGate haters don't want to even analyze with their lazy neurons and would rather state something silly.
If average lifetime of a vehicle is 20 years and it is destroyed 15 years early due to stupid people trying to fix something or just regular car crash.... three thirds of new vehicle environmental footprint must be added to the "environmental footprint of DieselGate".

Therefore the only way to lessen impact is to keep vehicles running avoiding 75% of new vehicle manufacturing env. footprint.