Difficult situation with a Condo, advice appreciated...

[teslick2]

Hi everyone! I recently took delivery of a Tesla Model 3 Long Range, and I love it!

Unfortunately, it seems that I should have done more homework when it comes to charging. I live in a 1970's condo unit in Los Angeles and I'm trying to get home charging installed. My HOA is receptive to me installing charging, so that's not an issue. My two issues are

1) My electrical meter is over 400 feet away from my parking spot. That means that my cabling might be expensive. However, my actual apartment (which has my electrical panel) is directly above my parking space.

2) My unit's main breaker is only 70A.

I spoke to two electricians so far. The first one came out and was the one who measured the distance. He said he would upgrade my main breaker to 100A and then run the power all the 400 ft to my space for $5700! That was a LOT and I'm also wonder if it's "okay" to just replace the breaker.

I then called another electrician over the phone (haven't had them come out yet) and asked if it was reasonable to just the power from my *panel* in my unit to the car. That would only be 80 ft, but he expressed concern over my 70A breaker. That said, he thinks it might be possible to do a slow 20A breaker. I do have air conditioning in this 650 sq ft unit.

So what's the deal here? Why is it that one guy is willing to upgrade the breaker but then wants to run the 400 ft wiring run, while the other guy is willing to run from the panel but is concerned about the amount of power I have available? What does you all think the best way to go is? Try to get power from my panel? Swallow the cost of a 400 ft run? Is it even safe to upgrade my breaker or to tap off my panel??

For reference, here's my breaker panel:

Ask one of the electricians about the possibility of a 6-20 outlet. It would get you ~15miles every hour, and would only require 12 gauge cable, which isn't too expensive.

 

[Bill25cycle]

Hi everyone! I recently took delivery of a Tesla Model 3 Long Range, and I love it!

Unfortunately, it seems that I should have done more homework when it comes to charging. I live in a 1970's condo unit in Los Angeles and I'm trying to get home charging installed. My HOA is receptive to me installing charging, so that's not an issue. My two issues are

1) My electrical meter is over 400 feet away from my parking spot. That means that my cabling might be expensive. However, my actual apartment (which has my electrical panel) is directly above my parking space.

2) My unit's main breaker is only 70A.

I spoke to two electricians so far. The first one came out and was the one who measured the distance. He said he would upgrade my main breaker to 100A and then run the power all the 400 ft to my space for $5700! That was a LOT and I'm also wonder if it's "okay" to just replace the breaker.

I then called another electrician over the phone (haven't had them come out yet) and asked if it was reasonable to just the power from my *panel* in my unit to the car. That would only be 80 ft, but he expressed concern over my 70A breaker. That said, he thinks it might be possible to do a slow 20A breaker. I do have air conditioning in this 650 sq ft unit.

So what's the deal here? Why is it that one guy is willing to upgrade the breaker but then wants to run the 400 ft wiring run, while the other guy is willing to run from the panel but is concerned about the amount of power I have available? What does you all think the best way to go is? Try to get power from my panel? Swallow the cost of a 400 ft run? Is it even safe to upgrade my breaker or to tap off my panel??

For reference, here's my breaker panel:

View attachment 651591

Hi - I'm an electrician - thanks for the 'detailed' question...

In general I know what I would do if I didn't want to spend a huge amount of Cash...... 3.8 kw (16 amperes on a 20 ampere circuit) seems to be very do-able. That would add several miles per hour of charging to your car - so, presumably if you were taking a trip on the weekend, you could 'pre-charge' the vehicle so that it was full by the weekend by each weekday charging up slightly more than you needed for the weekday.

You presumably (by viewing your GE panel) have gas cooking, water heating, and space heating. Should be adequate....
Hint: Have your electrician TIGHTEN all the main lugs to the panel, and also tighten the connections back at the main breaker - so that there are no surprises with the added 16 ampere load. Of course - you can go much bigger if you want to spend the money - but my suggestion would be 3.8 kw should be adequate unless you are a continually high-mileage driver.

 

[2Cybers]

Hi everyone! I recently took delivery of a Tesla Model 3 Long Range, and I love it!

Unfortunately, it seems that I should have done more homework when it comes to charging. I live in a 1970's condo unit in Los Angeles and I'm trying to get home charging installed. My HOA is receptive to me installing charging, so that's not an issue. My two issues are

1) My electrical meter is over 400 feet away from my parking spot. That means that my cabling might be expensive. However, my actual apartment (which has my electrical panel) is directly above my parking space.

2) My unit's main breaker is only 70A.

I spoke to two electricians so far. The first one came out and was the one who measured the distance. He said he would upgrade my main breaker to 100A and then run the power all the 400 ft to my space for $5700! That was a LOT and I'm also wonder if it's "okay" to just replace the breaker.

I then called another electrician over the phone (haven't had them come out yet) and asked if it was reasonable to just the power from my *panel* in my unit to the car. That would only be 80 ft, but he expressed concern over my 70A breaker. That said, he thinks it might be possible to do a slow 20A breaker. I do have air conditioning in this 650 sq ft unit.

So what's the deal here? Why is it that one guy is willing to upgrade the breaker but then wants to run the 400 ft wiring run, while the other guy is willing to run from the panel but is concerned about the amount of power I have available? What does you all think the best way to go is? Try to get power from my panel? Swallow the cost of a 400 ft run? Is it even safe to upgrade my breaker or to tap off my panel??

For reference, here's my breaker panel:

View attachment 651591

You absolutely can not replace the main breaker -- doing so will fry the wires between the electric company and your breaker box. Might start a fire. For sure will leave you without electricity for days - maybe many days.

This is a situation that requires a licensed, good electrician. You are wise to get multiple quotes - but unless all the quotes are close, I advise against the lowest quote - if you had a Tiger Woods type broken leg and one doc said X and four others were in the range of 1.6X, would you really go with the lowest bid?

 

[Rocky_H]

You absolutely can not replace the main breaker -- doing so will fry the wires between the electric company and your breaker box. Might start a fire. For sure will leave you without electricity for days - maybe many days.

You severely misunderstood (or didn't read) what was being suggested there. No one suggested just swapping in a higher value breaker with the same wire. It says right there, replacing with a 100A breaker and re-running new wire 400 feet to the apartment. That is upgrading the whole service to the apartment, which is why it says the quote was $5700 for that!

 

[rebel1996]

Hi everyone! I recently took delivery of a Tesla Model 3 Long Range, and I love it!

Unfortunately, it seems that I should have done more homework when it comes to charging. I live in a 1970's condo unit in Los Angeles and I'm trying to get home charging installed. My HOA is receptive to me installing charging, so that's not an issue. My two issues are

1) My electrical meter is over 400 feet away from my parking spot. That means that my cabling might be expensive. However, my actual apartment (which has my electrical panel) is directly above my parking space.

2) My unit's main breaker is only 70A.

I spoke to two electricians so far. The first one came out and was the one who measured the distance. He said he would upgrade my main breaker to 100A and then run the power all the 400 ft to my space for $5700! That was a LOT and I'm also wonder if it's "okay" to just replace the breaker.

I then called another electrician over the phone (haven't had them come out yet) and asked if it was reasonable to just the power from my *panel* in my unit to the car. That would only be 80 ft, but he expressed concern over my 70A breaker. That said, he thinks it might be possible to do a slow 20A breaker. I do have air conditioning in this 650 sq ft unit.

So what's the deal here? Why is it that one guy is willing to upgrade the breaker but then wants to run the 400 ft wiring run, while the other guy is willing to run from the panel but is concerned about the amount of power I have available? What does you all think the best way to go is? Try to get power from my panel? Swallow the cost of a 400 ft run? Is it even safe to upgrade my breaker or to tap off my panel??

For reference, here's my breaker panel:

View attachment 651591

Your best bet is to add a NEMA 6-15 or NEMA 6-20, that’s PLENTY of kWh for any but a extremely long commute. It won’t overload your panel, will be inexpensive, uses inexpensive 12G or 10G 2 +g wire.
Get the matching Tesla mobile adapter.

 

[jimonroe]

An uglier question is do you have a HOA that will allow any of this? Surely you're not the only EV in your whole complex.

 

[jackbowers]

My nephew was in this type of situation. I made him an 80' electric dryer extension cord out of home depot parts and ran it out his second-story window into the garden area next to where he parks; worked great. Use 10-gauge 3-conductor SOOW outdoor cord.

 

[Dapper]

Hi everyone! I recently took delivery of a Tesla Model 3 Long Range, and I love it!

Unfortunately, it seems that I should have done more homework when it comes to charging. I live in a 1970's condo unit in Los Angeles and I'm trying to get home charging installed. My HOA is receptive to me installing charging, so that's not an issue. My two issues are

1) My electrical meter is over 400 feet away from my parking spot. That means that my cabling might be expensive. However, my actual apartment (which has my electrical panel) is directly above my parking space.

2) My unit's main breaker is only 70A.

I spoke to two electricians so far. The first one came out and was the one who measured the distance. He said he would upgrade my main breaker to 100A and then run the power all the 400 ft to my space for $5700! That was a LOT and I'm also wonder if it's "okay" to just replace the breaker.

I then called another electrician over the phone (haven't had them come out yet) and asked if it was reasonable to just the power from my *panel* in my unit to the car. That would only be 80 ft, but he expressed concern over my 70A breaker. That said, he thinks it might be possible to do a slow 20A breaker. I do have air conditioning in this 650 sq ft unit.

So what's the deal here? Why is it that one guy is willing to upgrade the breaker but then wants to run the 400 ft wiring run, while the other guy is willing to run from the panel but is concerned about the amount of power I have available? What does you all think the best way to go is? Try to get power from my panel? Swallow the cost of a 400 ft run? Is it even safe to upgrade my breaker or to tap off my panel??

For reference, here's my breaker panel:

View attachment 651591

it is not the size of the breaker but the size of the wire that feeds the panel. Like a water pipe. Ask if the wire connected to the panel will take a 100A load. I had the same issue and charge at night and make sure my AC and other items are not running. I could only do a 30A plug because of power availability.

 

[MetricExpanse]

Put in a 50 amp and it will only charge at 35 amps. Which is half your capacity unless you have electric stove electric dryer and your air conditioner running at the same time the 35 amps when you're charging won't be a problem it would be best to charge at night when you're not using your electric stove or electric dryer.

I'm not opposed to mutual exclusion on the washer/dryer and charging. But I *do* want to be able to run AC, microwave, and charging all at once. 50A sounds ambitious, but according to some load calculations it's supposedly okay. I'm not sure how much credence to put on that and I think I'd want to get a DCC unit for me to feel totally comfortable with it.

Ask one of the electricians about the possibility of a 6-20 outlet. It would get you ~15miles every hour, and would only require 12 gauge cable, which isn't too expensive.

Your best bet is to add a NEMA 6-15 or NEMA 6-20, that’s PLENTY of kWh for any but a extremely long commute. It won’t overload your panel, will be inexpensive, uses inexpensive 12G or 10G 2 +g wire.

That would mean using the mobile adapter, correct? I'm worried that "just" installing a NEMA plug won't qualify me for incentives. I especially want that $1000 federal tax credit and the $500 L2 charger rebate from my power company. With the estimates I have so far, the bulk of the expense is actually labor, wall penetrations, and a manlift. The actual cabling itself is only about 30% of the expense.

In general I know what I would do if I didn't want to spend a huge amount of Cash...... 3.8 kw (16 amperes on a 20 ampere circuit) seems to be very do-able. That would add several miles per hour of charging to your car - so, presumably if you were taking a trip on the weekend, you could 'pre-charge' the vehicle so that it was full by the weekend by each weekday charging up slightly more than you needed for the weekday.

Yeah, and I might be fine living with 16A charging. I might try to get them to install a bigger breaker if they can though (the biggest that would pass an inspection) and then just soft-limit it in the Tesla Wall Charger and/or car. That way I always have the option to upgrade the power, especially if I add a DCC unit later on.

An uglier question is do you have a HOA that will allow any of this? Surely you're not the only EV in your whole complex.

So far, the person I'm talking to at the management company is being pretty permissive about it. She basically said "just make sure it's tight to the wall and not ugly". The area that will be carrying my new wire already has a lot of cable internet wires running through there already. Honestly, the place feels like a bit of a free-for-all at the moment. But who knows what'll happen when it's submitted to the HOA board for formal approval.

And, as far as I can tell, I'm the *only* person with an EV in my garage at least. They don't seem common here.

it is not the size of the breaker but the size of the wire that feeds the panel. Like a water pipe. Ask if the wire connected to the panel will take a 100A load. I had the same issue and charge at night and make sure my AC and other items are not running. I could only do a 30A plug because of power availability.

I have an electrician coming today to inspect my load center. I hope he'll take a look at the feeder and see if it's big enough to support 100A. But I'm not holding my breath. My expectation is that 70A is all I'm going to get and that's what I have to work with!

 

[Manoffoam]

Hi everyone! I recently took delivery of a Tesla Model 3 Long Range, and I love it!

Unfortunately, it seems that I should have done more homework when it comes to charging. I live in a 1970's condo unit in Los Angeles and I'm trying to get home charging installed. My HOA is receptive to me installing charging, so that's not an issue. My two issues are

1) My electrical meter is over 400 feet away from my parking spot. That means that my cabling might be expensive. However, my actual apartment (which has my electrical panel) is directly above my parking space.

2) My unit's main breaker is only 70A.

I spoke to two electricians so far. The first one came out and was the one who measured the distance. He said he would upgrade my main breaker to 100A and then run the power all the 400 ft to my space for $5700! That was a LOT and I'm also wonder if it's "okay" to just replace the breaker.

I then called another electrician over the phone (haven't had them come out yet) and asked if it was reasonable to just the power from my *panel* in my unit to the car. That would only be 80 ft, but he expressed concern over my 70A breaker. That said, he thinks it might be possible to do a slow 20A breaker. I do have air conditioning in this 650 sq ft unit.

So what's the deal here? Why is it that one guy is willing to upgrade the breaker but then wants to run the 400 ft wiring run, while the other guy is willing to run from the panel but is concerned about the amount of power I have available? What does you all think the best way to go is? Try to get power from my panel? Swallow the cost of a 400 ft run? Is it even safe to upgrade my breaker or to tap off my panel??

For reference, here's my breaker panel:

View attachment 651591

I can't speak to the specifics of your electrical, but can empathize with your situation. I made a few assumptions, that seemed reasonable at the time, about how to run the power, but bought the car before sorting things out. I later found out that my power meter wasn't in a proper place (right over the gas meter), and the whole meter and stand pipe would need to be moved to run power to a Tesla charging box. Ended up with a bill for just under $5k. In theory I am safer, and I am very happy with the home charging, but that was extremely painful lesson. Now when people tell me they are buying the car, I caution them to check their electrical system before jumping in, particularly if they are in an apartment/condo complex. Fortunately quite a few people already have 240 in their garages for washer/driers.

 

[Koolio46]

Your new 20A 240V outlet should be "NEMA 6-20" and Tesla does sell that pigtail for your portable connector for $35.

A 6-20 is what I did for mine. I was in a similar situation as the OP but in my situation it was my own garage.

My panel and condo is on the 2nd floor and my garage is on the ground floor below my unit. Had a 15A and a 20A/120V circuit in my garage. Decided to go with a 6-20 by swapping out the 20A/120V breaker in my panel to a 20A/240V. Then, we dedicated this circuit to the Tesla by moving the garage door opener to the 15A circuit (which is also used for lights and 2 outlets with 3 battery tenders on the outlet for my motorcycles / scooter).

 

[Sophias_dad]

Put in a 50 amp and it will only charge at 35 amps.

That's just plain wrong. 50 amp breaker will allow the EV to take 40 amps continuous. Since that 70 amp breaker is in theory limited to 56 amps continuous(unless the rules are different for main breakers), OP would only be allowed 16 more amps of continuous load, and that's just silly.

 

[MetricExpanse]

I guess its possible that you have dual lines coming off from the AC breaker, one set to the indoor unit for the heat strips and one to the outdoor unit for the compressor. I'd say they could have the compressor indoors, but then they'd still have to run power to the outdoor unit for its fan. This wouldn't be entirely unreasonable because if you are running the lineset(piping) there's no reason not to have a relatively low-current cable with it.

BTW, I believe the 018 in the part name indicates its a 1.5 ton device(18000 btu/hr), a very small unit indeed. If you wanted to go to a mini-split thing(which you probably don't), I understand some of them will happily provide meaningful heating down to an outdoor temperature into negative single digits without any strip heaters.

This whole situation with my heat pump and fan is just super weird. I think you are reading the label correctly. I think the compressor is actually outside? But I've never had the chance to look at it. Since you noted that my heat pump is small, I want the electrician coming today to somehow measure the current in the AC when it's running. I really hope it's not using the full 30A.

 

[MetricExpanse]

I am noticing a lot of support for the NEMA 6-20. It is really that much cheaper to run? Does it have to do with the fact that it doesn't have a neutral wire? My biggest question is whether I can get the federal tax credit if I run that because otherwise I'd be missing out on nearly $1000.

For reference, my quotes on the 80ft run are showing about $800-$1000 for the cable alone. So even if I save like 25% on running a cheaper wire for NEMA 6-20, if I don't get the tax credit then I have likely come out paying more once it's all said and done.

For illustration, here is one quote I have received (excludes the $500 Tesla Wall Charger unit):

 

[Sophias_dad]

This whole situation with my heat pump and fan is just super weird. I think you are reading the label correctly. I think the compressor is actually outside? But I've never had the chance to look at it. Since you noted that my heat pump is small, I want the electrician coming today to somehow measure the current in the AC when it's running. I really hope it's not using the full 30A.

A few more datapoints I hope you find useful, as I happen to have an 3 ton heat pump(twice yours) circa 2012, and its specs are 19.5 amps for the compressor and its fan combined(usually the set is called a condenser, the outdoor unit). The indoor unit(air handler) takes 4.3 amps. I have no electric heating elements anywhere.

 

[MetricExpanse]

A few more datapoints I hope you find useful, as I happen to have an 3 ton heat pump(twice yours) circa 2012, and its specs are 19.5 amps for the compressor and its fan combined(usually the set is called a condenser, the outdoor unit). The indoor unit(air handler) takes 4.3 amps. I have no electric heating elements anywhere.

Hmm. That's really encouraging, actually. I really hope that means that my cooling power draw is, in fact, much lower than 30A (maybe even just 10-13A?) and that the 30A breaker is literally just for some resistance heaters that I will never use. I am really going to push the electricians to measure it if they don't do it by themselves...

 

[digit511]

You mean like the 3mi/hr 110V trickle charge? I suppose I could get away with it since my commute is short, but I'd prefer to have a bit more. My thinking is that if I'm going through the expense of running new cables, I would like the idea of coming to a 80% charged car every time I get in.

Hmmm, what’s that 30A breaker 11 for?
Mine was an old unused 240V electric dryer socket in the garage. A $30 adapter let me charge the car overnight (set the location-based charging rate to 24A on the charge screen in the car) using the cable that came with the car. Get TOU metering, and set the car to start charging at 10pm, and you get the cheapest rate.

 

[Rocky_H]

I am noticing a lot of support for the NEMA 6-20. It is really that much cheaper to run? [...] So even if I save like 25% on running a cheaper wire for NEMA 6-20,

I think you're misunderstanding why people are suggesting that. It's nothing to do with cheaper wire, or even anything related to just that specific line for the charging circuit itself. This is about the fact that it is more likely that you can probably fit an extra 20A circuit into your EXISTING main service that your apartment has. If you go much bigger than 20A or maybe 30A, it's very likely that you have to increase the entire main feed to your apartment, which costs several extra thousand dollars.

 

[Target]

Your best bet is to add a NEMA 6-15 or NEMA 6-20, that’s PLENTY of kWh for any but a extremely long commute. It won’t overload your panel, will be inexpensive, uses inexpensive 12G or 10G 2 +g wire.
Get the matching Tesla mobile adapter.

I agree with a 20A 240 volt circuit is certainly safe, but for tax and reliability reasons I suggest hard wiring it to a fixed Tesla or J1772 based station. I mention J1772 station because you may not always own a Tesla, and it is nice not to be locked into a brand based on previous investment. Either way, yes labor is going to be high, but just running a 20A 240V to a hardwired station makes this easy.

Also, the number labels on your breakers are put on wrong and it is driving me nuts! The 240V AC breaker is actually in slots 6 and 8, but it is labeled 11 and 12, which is why the diagram written on the door doesn't match up very well with the actual breakers. It is just bugging me!

Based on your loads you have limited draw, and I would speculate that the resistance heat strips aren't connected presently. Others have covered how split phase works so I won't rehash that but your PC, fridge, microwave might draw 20 amps total at 120V (10A at 240V) and they are intermittent loads. Your AC probably draws 10A at 240V. My 3 ton unit only draws 14A and it was installed 20 years ago. Allowing for surge current is a thing with motors though, so call it 20A for rating purposes.

I see you having about 30A of load, so long as it's reasonably balanced you could go with a 30A charging station which would draw 24A, bringing you to 54A. That is still a ton of headroom.

If you want to get more precise we will need more data like square footage, if you have a garbage disposal or not and I could do a proper load calculation. Also range hood, or any other appliances? Is all your lighting LED? The range calculator assumes 20 amps of draw just for lighting.

For your situation to get it approved per NEC (if anyone actually cares) you would need to measure actual use for a month to capture your peak. Ideally you would have peak usage for a year. If you have a smart meter your utility company might be able to provide this to you. With that data you can find the peak and then they have a calculation based on Peak + safety factor + new load. If that is under your service then you are fine. The load calculation doesn't look good for adding anything based on 800 square feet though.

 

[ForumLeech]

Ah yes, I’ve been looking at the DCC units! I might bring that up to the electrician that’s offering to do a run from inside my unit.




I’m actually looking into getting the Tesla Wall Connector even if I can only do 20A. My understanding is that it will let me take advantage of the L2 charger tax credits and my power company rebates, which would actually make my installation cheaper overall!

Try to future proof this for people who live there after you: run 50A wiring from garage to breaker panel but configure everything else to only use/provide 20A. There’s no risk in thicker wiring. It just costs slightly more. And consider installing a J1776 wall charger so any car can charge there in future.

You might be overthinking the 70A main breaker limitation. You can postpone the panel upgrade decision and charge the car at night with its scheduling feature. You don’t actually know if it needs an upgrade until you start loading up the panel. Even if you did trip the breaker well so what? You can switch it back on and upgrade it when you have evidence it’s necessary.