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Direct Charging v Juicebox
- Thread starter Dluftman
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- juicebox charging
Len905
Member
Electrician doing the work.
Actually extending wiring from existing socket (in laundry room, not in garage) to a new location in the garage, thus installing 14-50 so we can plug in the adapter..
Home was built in 1968 and the 10-30 was wired as would normally be back then with wire gauge to support the 30 amps. It is not sufficient to support the 50 amps.
We will use the existing 30 amp breaker.
Mike1080i
Member
If I were in a similar situation I would stay with a 30 amp outlet (the existing 10-30 or new 14-30) and buy the matching adapter for the Mobile Connector.
Len905
Member
Yes a 14-30 on a 30 amp breaker is correct. According to TESLA this will charge 22 miles per hour which will do fine. This therefore means that I won't need either the HPWC or a JuiceBox.
Stick with 14-30 ..no need for 14-50 unless you plan on rewiring ...even than u can take advantage of full 14-50 capability as the gen 2 umc is only good for 32a ..if u are going to reword do properly to support a WC
This makes no sense and is dangerous. I suggest you get another electrician. Whoever you use should follow Tesla’s installation guidelines for whatever outlet is used:
Home Charging Installation
Lots of info here. The PDFs for each outlet type are at the very bottom of the page.
Len905
Member
Thank you all for your response and support.
I've downloaded the Home Charging Installation guide (the plug installation details).
I'll have the electrician install a 14-30 and this will do the stuff I need for the M3 I'm getting.
Thanks again.
I've downloaded the Home Charging Installation guide (the plug installation details).
I'll have the electrician install a 14-30 and this will do the stuff I need for the M3 I'm getting.
Thanks again.
eprosenx
Active Member
That’s against code in so many ways...why not just put a 14-30 and get the 14-30 Tesla adaptor ?
I’m assuming he’s using the old wire ? I can’t tell from your explanation if he is using existing wire and what breaker size at panel
This is incorrect. We need to stick to the facts of the National Electrical Code here.
It *is* allowed to put a 50a receptacle on a 30a capable wire as long as it is the only receptacle on the circuit and you keep the 30a breaker. (though you probably can’t do this if your intended load is a 32a continuous load)
While I typically would never recommend this, I do not believe any code sections would phrohibit it.
As mentioned, the better solution would be to wire in a 14-30 receptacle and get the proper Tesla adapter so that it would automatically know to limit charging to 24a. You can only draw 24 amps continuously (which electric vehicles are always considered continuous loads). So if you do go ahead with the 50a receptacle you would need to crank it down to 24a.
Though with that being said, the code violation probably comes in because your intended device for that 50a receptacle on a 30a circuit is a UMC gen 2 which has a 32a nameplate (well the new ones only list 30a actually weirdly enough even though they draw 32).
I don’t have my laptop with me so I don’t have the code reference section handy here (I have called it out many times in these forums), but all that NEC says is that the receptacle must equal or be greater than the rating of the branch circuit it is connected to.
Oh, and a 10-30 only has two hits and a neutral, ground. To extend that to another area and switch to a 14-50 or 14-30 it would need to have two hots a neutral and a ground (often times the wiring has these, but people just installed the old receptacle type because that is what folks dyers needed).
brucet999
Active Member
Get a new electrician. It is a code violation to install a NEMA14-50 on a 30A circuit. What's to prevent a future user from plugging in a 50A device like a welder or an RV? A 30A circuit must be terminated with either a NEMA 14-30 or 10-30 outlet.
When Tesla UMC has a 14-50 adapter connected, the car will charge at a rate appropriate for a 50A 240V source - much too high for a 30A circuit.
You should install a code-appropriate 10-30 or 14-30 outlet (depending upon availability of a ground wire in the old dryer outlet box) and buy a 30A adapter from Tesla so that the car will set its rate of charge appropriately according to the adapter being used.
Model S/X/3 Gen 2 NEMA Adapters
eprosenx
Active Member
This is wrong. Installing a 14-50 receptacle on a 30a circuit by itself is not against the NEC by my reading.
Please go read the 2017 NEC article 210.21(B)(1) (you can get free access on their web site)
Basically it just says that your receptacle must be rated to an equal or greater ampacity than the feeding branch circuit. That is all. All the other code in that section seems to only apply if you have more than one receptacle on a circuit or specific situations like ovens and such.
Now I don’t recommend it, but it is important to be specific here about what is allowed by code and what is not.
Code does also say that your circuit must be of sufficient ampacity for the device you intend to connect (which is where this falls down when talking about the UMC gen 2 with the 14-50 adapter). So yes, the right thing to do is to wire a 14-30 receptacle and get the right UMC adapter.
I asume you meant that you have a NEMA 14-30 outlet. You can just get a Tesla NEMA 14-30 adapter for $35 and avoid changing the outlet to a 14-50. In any case, you should not put a 50 amp outlet on a 30 amp circuit. That is likely against code and runs the risk of overloading the circuit.To your question, though, I think the Jukebox is your best option. You can charge any EV with it - not only Teslas - and it supports Smart Charging where you can get rebates for charging when the electricity on the grid is cheap and / or green (at least in California). There is no real advantage with going with the proprietary Tesla HPWC in your situation.
Everyone is focused on the amps part of it, but the much much bigger issue is that you don't have enough wires in that run. As @eprosenx mentioned, the 10-30 outlet you have only uses 3 wires. To install either a 14-30 or a 14-50 MUST have four wires. So unless you are planning to re-pull new wire through the wall, you can't install either a 14-30 or 14-50. Period.
So before you even ask about those three questions you have, your premise is wrong. You have to deal with what you can do with three wires. There are two really straightforward things you can do.
(1) You already have a proper 10-30 outlet. Just buy Tesla's 10-30 adapter and plug it in. Seriously, it's not any more complicated than that. Here's the link to order it:
Model S/X/3 Gen 2 NEMA Adapters
(2) Hard wire some kind of wall mounted charging station at the ends of those wires instead of an outlet. If you're not just going to buy an adapter, I would probably get some kind of station that is made to go in a 30A outlet and put it in. There are a couple of pluses to that, and it's clean.
(3) You can get the outlet switched to a three wire outlet that does have a ground, which would be a 6-30. Tesla doesn't sell a 6-30 adapter, but EVSEAdapters.com does. Here's the link, but it's cumbersome to switch the outlet if you're just going to have to buy an adapter anyway. Just get the 10-30 instead and not change the outlet. I guess the possible reason for this might be if you have to extend the outlet to a different location. You can't do a new 10-30 install, so you would need to extend the three wires to a new place, and 6-30 is the proper thing you could put at the end of it.
NEMA 6-30 Adapter for Tesla Model S/X/3 Gen 2
concur with EVERYTHING posted in the last couple pages. If you're not going to upgrade the wiring (which would be required to get it up to code fort he original 14-50 you mentioned) then why not just leave it? You're not going to get any faster charing with a 14-30 socket and adaptor vs the 14-50 adaptor from that circuit/breaker/wiring.
I simply bought a dryer buddy for 150$, plugged in the 10-30 to the wall, the dryer into the 10-30 port and the M3 into the 14-50 socket on the dryer buddy and it charges fine.
Prior to that, I picked up the 10-30 adaptor from Tesla and would get the stated 22 (actually often 24) mph from that socket and circuit.
Saves putting the money into the 14-50 non-code wall socket upgrade.
Best solution, would probably be a 14-50 real upgrade from the panel if you can get a free 50amp breaker and put in a juice buddy 40 for fastest charging if you don't want the Tesla Home Charger.
I simply bought a dryer buddy for 150$, plugged in the 10-30 to the wall, the dryer into the 10-30 port and the M3 into the 14-50 socket on the dryer buddy and it charges fine.
Prior to that, I picked up the 10-30 adaptor from Tesla and would get the stated 22 (actually often 24) mph from that socket and circuit.
Saves putting the money into the 14-50 non-code wall socket upgrade.
Best solution, would probably be a 14-50 real upgrade from the panel if you can get a free 50amp breaker and put in a juice buddy 40 for fastest charging if you don't want the Tesla Home Charger.
Auughh! Don't DO that!
Jeez, I hate that they even sell that thing. With what you have described, you are drawing 32A from a 30A circuit, and if your breaker isn't constantly tripping, you have serious dangers of the "burn your house down" variety.Dryer Buddies are an interesting, but bad idea, and there is about one product they have which is a decent way to do it. I would never recommend anyone buy any of those versions that make a 50A outlet available on a 30A circuit. It's a bad idea, and there's no good reason for it. Dryer Buddies should only duplicate the same level of amps of outlet and maybe switch between 10-30 and 14-30 types. So if you have a 10-30 outlet in your wall, get the one that makes it unto two 10-30 outlets and get the Tesla adapter for a 10-30.
So that's the big one, but this is also pretty important. The standard Dryer Buddy has no prevention of you drawing from both outlets at the same time and overdrawing the circuit. I really don't like that. The Dryer Buddy Plus has a toggle, to switch which one is active. That's good, but a bit inconvenient. The Dryer Buddy Plus Auto version is the only one I recommend, because it auto senses, and it will keep your dryer outlet on unless the car tries to start charging, and then it will auto switch and turn off the dryer side.
And yet, the TMC with that plug seems to only draw the 24A one would expect. It's not throttled by changing the max charging rate either?Auughh! Don't DO that!
Dryer Buddies are an interesting, but bad idea, and there is about one product they have which is a decent way to do it. I would never recommend anyone buy any of those versions that make a 50A outlet available on a 30A circuit. It's a bad idea, and there's no good reason for it. Dryer Buddies should only duplicate the same level of amps of outlet and maybe switch between 10-30 and 14-30 types. So if you have a 10-30 outlet in your wall, get the one that makes it unto two 10-30 outlets and get the Tesla adapter for a 10-30.
So that's the big one, but this is also pretty important. The standard Dryer Buddy has no prevention of you drawing from both outlets at the same time and overdrawing the circuit. I really don't like that. The Dryer Buddy Plus has a toggle, to switch which one is active. That's good, but a bit inconvenient. The Dryer Buddy Plus Auto version is the only one I recommend, because it auto senses, and it will keep your dryer outlet on unless the car tries to start charging, and then it will auto switch and turn off the dryer side.
Could it be that the TMC is more intelligent than we think?
But, as you noted indeed it won't auto sense and that could be a problem for some users. Ours is right by the dryer so A) it's pretty clear if the car is plugged in and or one is going to use the dryer and B) the car is set to charge only after 23:00. The dryer is never really going then anyway. Ever.
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Len905
Member
Again thank you all for this great conversation.
Here is what we've decided to do:
1. No JuiceBox or Tesla HPWC is required.
2. We will just extend from the existing 10-30 in the laundry room to a new 10-30 plug in the garage.
3. The existing 10-30 in the laundry room will be disconnected (removed) It was never used.
4. We will get the Tesla adapter for the 10-30 and use the charging cable that comes with the M3.
Here is what we've decided to do:
1. No JuiceBox or Tesla HPWC is required.
2. We will just extend from the existing 10-30 in the laundry room to a new 10-30 plug in the garage.
3. The existing 10-30 in the laundry room will be disconnected (removed) It was never used.
4. We will get the Tesla adapter for the 10-30 and use the charging cable that comes with the M3.
Len905
Member
Sorry that I don't yet know the proper lingo.
Yes when I indicated "use the charging cable that comes with the M3" I meant the "UMC2".
Yes when I indicated "use the charging cable that comes with the M3" I meant the "UMC2".
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