Disappearing Miles (SHOCKED )!

[UkNorthampton]

Tesla have to provide an estimate. That can take into effect some aspects, temperature, weather, but it will always be an estimate.

"Lost miles" are due to physics, battery chemistry & probably sentry mode.

ICE cars are very inefficient & use brute force to make progress. Generally people don't notice their diesel is using loads of fuel when cold. EVs are more efficient & all sorts of things make a difference.

For anyone researching before buying a Tesla - plenty of youtube videos (Bjorn Nyland, Andrew Till, EV Man, R Symons) explaining this, I'm sure there are plenty of forum posts here, stickies here. Worth knowing how to get the best from any car.

1. Weather
   1. Temperature
   2. Water in air (humidity, rain) & on road surface
   3. Air pressure
   4. High winds
2. Heat - better to use seat heating rather than air (pretty minor)
3. Sentry mode on - computer is on, uses energy
4. Heating battery, stop, reheat might take a lot of energy depending on situation & length of stops
5. Pre-heating for Supercharger - you can swap kWh for time by navigating to a nearby point (hotel, shop) rather than Supercharger, might take a little longer to charge, but saves some kWh/money
6. Luggage - worth buying a towbar version & towbar luggage instead of roof box - I'm looking at YOU Andrew Till - top-box to Italy - pfft!
7. ICE vs EV - acceleration in an ICE uses a LOT of fuel, EVs - not so much. High-cruising speed in EVs have a bigger effect because EVs are more efficient & air-resistance is a bigger factor.
8. Drop 5mph can make a huge difference
9. Tyre pressures (lower in cold as air pressure related to temperature, less range with low tyre pressures) - I prefer setting to higher end of range if I'm starting a long trip or series of them.
10. Driving, smooth, one-pedal driving vs unnecessary use of brake
11. Possible to have a sticky brake, check temperatures (hand, temperature gun - dunno)
12. New energy graph/details worth investigating
    (first video, should be better ones)
    1. 3 tabs, Drive, park & Consumption - below is just from "Driving" tab
       1. Driving
       2. Climate
       3. battery Conditioning
       4. Elevation (up/down hills)
       5. Everything else
       6. Gren - good (better than car expected)
       7. Orange - worse than expected

 

[HenryT]

Aside from the very helpful post by @UkNorthampton have a read of this.

 

[thewishy]

From the description of motorway services, it seems you're also doing motorway speeds. Even on a 20c windless day, you're probably not going to hit 345 miles on a motorway, even if you're broadly following speed limits.

Tesla Model 3 Long Range Dual Motor provides a nice range card which might help you get your ahead around it.

Others have done a great job of explaining why there is an issue, so here is my advance on how to plan a journey
- Swap the mileage display to percentage. Estimated range is not very useful - efficiency changes dramatically depending on any number of conditions, but will be especially misleading on long motorway segments
- Use the onboard trip planner, it will take into account a ridiculous number of factors, and will provide a very good estimate. It'll also do a good job of routing you to superchargers, and rerouting you to avoid busy ones. Remember that factors include live weather, so checking 2 days before might not be the same as the day you leave.
- ABRP does a good job of initial trip prep. It might also suggest non-tesla superchargers, which may occasionally be more convenient than superchargers. It's generally a little more pessimistic than the routeplanner.
- Energy graphing onboard can provide some guidance for improving efficiency
- Chill, plugging in for 10 minutes on a 4 hour journey isn't the end of the world, you probably need a break at that point anyway

Or, just set your destination in the route planner, let the onboard planner do it's thing, and charge when you need to charge

 

[Cardo]

Change your battery display to % rather than miles, then you won’t be so shocked.

But I agree with Adopado. This thread is serious clickbait.

 

[DaveNN]

Change your battery display to % rather than miles, then you won’t be so shocked.

But I agree with Adopado. This thread is serious clickbait.

It is.
That's why I haven't responded.

 

[Forty_Two]

Aside from the very helpful post by @UkNorthampton have a read of this.

Does the yellow line indicate the summer range and the blue the winter range - if so for the M3 LR it has a yellow range of about 210 miles and a winter range of about 175 miles . . . . . . . 210 miles - wrong ??!

 

[mjwojtukiewicz]

M3 LR (2022 model 6k on the clock)

We visited several distant family members over Christmas which was only our second long journey since buying the car in March. I was SHOCKED at the loss of mileage. We had a few stops and starts and few short family plug-ins but here are two examples:

Journey out: Started with 345miles on the clock, drove 194 miles (<4 hours) arrived at destination with 68 miles on the clock (83 miles lost somewhere)?
Journey back (up to Hilton Park Services): Started with 184 miles on the clock, drove 108 miles (about 2 hours) arrived at destination with 40 miles on the clock (36 miles lost somewhere)?

The weather temps was plus 9 to 14 degrees.

I am in shock; is that normal; how the hell can I plan a journey with miles disappearing at that rate?

I assume you used the heat.....and did you do alot of hill climbing? If you got the later OTA update use the ENERGY icon and you can see where your electricity goes. 30 degrees Fahrenheit here and just running heat and battery warming takes miles off (My car does NNOT have the heat pump)

 

[mjwojtukiewicz]

Energy graph and estimated charge on arrival are pretty easy to read.

What he says....energy graph shows it all. I lost a bunch of charge overnight 20-30F in the driveway

 

[HenryT]

Does the yellow line indicate the summer range and the blue the winter range - if so for the M3 LR it has a yellow range of about 210 miles and a winter range of about 175 miles . . . . . . . 210 miles - wrong ??!

The source of the data is explained in the article in the link.

Here.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

Preheating to a supercharger is dreadful at the moment for consumption. Speed is also a killer with anything over 70 really hurting

I drove to see my uncle last week, put Oxford supercharger as the destination, drove at about, erm, 75mph for 100+ miles and consumption was 370wh/m inc battery preheating for charging.

After charging drove the next 100 miles at 65-70mph and consumption was under 270wh/m

On the way back, didn’t put a supercharger as a destination until not far away, drive was again a little under 70 because of traffic and again well under 300wh/m

So my tip, if range bothers you, keep to a max of 70, and don’t put in a supercharger as a destination too far out.

 

[davyjohns]

WHY? My eyesight isn't bad (I used x2 for reading) but I can't read that gauge without putting on reading glasses and I can't do that whilst I am driving. WHY is it so small?

3yrs ago within two weeks of owning my first M3 went to the opticians. Had a pair of bi-focals with the bottom third for reading at arms length, top for distance. Work perfectly when glancing at the screen to read time, percentage navigate etc, etc.

 

[Slowbiker]

The source of the data is explained in the article in the link.

Here.

That chart seems to be in error. If you follow your link through you end up at a Norweigan test that shows the winter range as 404km which is around 240 miles which is what I get on a Long Range in winter. Summer is normally around 300 miles. The test is also carried out on a non-heat pump car. The chart would suggest the figures for a Standard Range car.

 

[Proppilot]

Those two example journey saw a loss of 20% to 24% . . . that is huge, surely that can' be right? If that IS 'right' I need an ICE car for winter journeys to save money on fuel!

You can plan on 20% efficiency loss pretty much all the time. It will be higher if you are over 110 km/h or extreme cold or hot and sentry mode is a battery lover. You just plan on it....

 

[Sean.]

So my tip, if range bothers you, keep to a max of 70, and don’t put in a supercharger as a destination too far out.

If supercharging is on the cards, is there any known detriment (or benefit) to preheating during (or before) the trip or just letting the car pre-heat once you arrive at the supercharger?

I know it will take longer (potentially) in really cold weather to get the battery temperature optimal, so it takes a bit longer to charge (maybe 10-15 mins or so) but is there a battery health / longevity hit when warming the battery just before you hit it with a lot of DC?

[also means for me Elon pays for the 'leccy to heat up the battery. Selfish I know but I figure he's got a few more billion ]

 

[RandyS]

The range number on the dash is merely an estimate. Overall range is affected by ambient temperature, battery temperature, heater or AC settings in cabin, elevation gain/loss, vehicle speed, tires/wheels, and most importantly, your driving style. The combination of all these things together will determine what overall range you'll get in your car. You'll get better range in summer and less range in winter, of course.

 

[thewishy]

If supercharging is on the cards, is there any known detriment (or benefit) to preheating during (or before) the trip or just letting the car pre-heat once you arrive at the supercharger?

I know it will take longer (potentially) in really cold weather to get the battery temperature optimal, so it takes a bit longer to charge (maybe 10-15 mins or so) but is there a battery health / longevity hit when warming the battery just before you hit it with a lot of DC?

[also means for me Elon pays for the 'leccy to heat up the battery. Selfish I know but I figure he's got a few more billion ]

I'll cover longevity first. Thermal management on a Tesla is very good, and the period of time the battery is kept at a high temperature is limited. While it's technically correct that it will cause some additional wear, that would really only be a concern if it's an extended period of time. Long term data suggests that there is a measurable impact to excessive DC charging, but that it is very small (generally a few percent at 5 years).

Next point, You've got misconception is that Elon pays for the battery heating if you're at the supercharger. You're paying for all of the electric that comes out of the dispenser. (With other networks, you might pay for all the AC going in to the charger, whereas with Tesla you're paying for the DC coming out, but you're still paying for anything that reaches your car). Unless of course you have free supercharging, in which case, well, doesn't really make any odds - preheat and you'll quickly recover the power
If you're sat at a supercharger running the heater/heatpump to bring the battery up to temp, then you're paying for that. And it slows down your charging, and if it's busy, creates a queue.

On most models it'll be a heatpump taking heat from either the air, or the motor in order to heat that pack up. In most conditions, using heat from the warm motors will be more efficient than taking it from the air; this will be especially true in winter.
If you're not on a heatpump model (Really only the pre-refresh model 3, AFAIK), then you've got a choice of what amounts to resistivity heating (approximately 1/3rd the efficiency of the heatpump) or waste heat while driving ("free").

So, at highway speeds, your best source of heat is almost always going to be from waste heat from the motor, which you can't get at a DC charge stall. You need to balance that against
- Heat loss because your pack isn't well insulated, and in the winter you'll lose some to that
- Very very marginally wear

Actually if you switch to the supercharger at a destination, you'll then need to suck heat out of the air to heat the battery, which will consume more power. Better to let the system do it's own thing. That's why you'll see preconditioning notices anything up to an hour ahead of the visit to the supercharger.

The only valid usecase for not preconditioning would be:
- Preconditioning power usage would impact your range enough to mean that you can't make it to the charger (Although, the tesla itself should balance that out)
- If you only intend a small charge, and the reduction in time spent charging doesn't justify the amount of heating needed, eg you only need to top up 10% to make it to your destination

Preheating at home before heading out would make sense if
- You're doing a long trip, in which case the extra efficiency is worth having
- You're planning to go to a supercharger early in the trip, and your car won't have generated enough waste heat

TLDR; Tesla engineers have spent a long time optimising this, let the car do it's job

 

[Sean.]

Next point, You've got misconception is that Elon pays for the battery heating if you're at the supercharger. You're paying for all of the electric that comes out of the dispenser.

Lifetime free super here. No heat pump. Older 2017 generation models X with resistive heating.

I think the gist of your answer is that there no discernible difference / impact to batt. heath whether you pre-condition on the way or do it once plugged into DC. Just a time factor then.

 

[thewishy]

Lifetime free super here. No heat pump. Older 2017 generation models X with resistive heating.

I think the gist of your answer is that there no discernible difference / impact to batt. heath whether you pre-condition on the way or do it once plugged into DC. Just a time factor then.

A 2017 model X is probably an outlier here, but you will recover heat from the motors AFAIK. So time, and overall KW in, vs mileage are the factors.

 

[Sean.]

A 2017 model X is probably an outlier here, but you will recover heat from the motors AFAIK. So time, and overall KW in, vs mileage are the factors.

Yeh my experience (in this particular car with no heat pump, etc.) has been that in the middle of winter, there is F-all squared heat that comes from the motors (relative to what is needed to raise battery temps from near freezing to 30C+) and pre-conditioning on the way just otherwise eats into the already limited winter range.

Preconditioning may be more sensible for the wider good of the 'fleet', shall we say, especially newer cars with heat pumps that are more efficient at recovering heat, and from the point of view of collectively better charging time, vehicle throughput/efficiency at the SC's but from a personal perspective (on this car) it otherwise just eats range and is needlessly spending on electrons. The penalty is charging time, but as this increases with age anyhow isn't vitally important.

 

[HenryT]

That chart seems to be in error. If you follow your link through you end up at a Norweigan test that shows the winter range as 404km which is around 240 miles which is what I get on a Long Range in winter. Summer is normally around 300 miles. The test is also carried out on a non-heat pump car. The chart would suggest the figures for a Standard Range car.

In the comments on the article from the link they explain how they got their data thus;

This chart compares 14 popular EV models to show range loss in different driving conditions. It includes aggregated and anonymized data from 7,000 vehicles in the Recurrent community from across the United States as well as tens of thousands of data points from on-board devices that provide data on energy usage.

The estimated winter range for several vehicles has been updated in 2022 to reflect the winter range that we have verified with real-world data. We will continue to update this chart as we verify new models.

Specifically about the data for the Tesla they say the following;

Tesla Model 3 Winter Range​

Model or Trim: Long Range
Observed Range at 20-30F: 44% of Original EPA Range
Observed Range at 70F: 62% of Original EPA Range

Tesla is known for two things in the winter: having a very proactive thermal management system that kicks in at both high and low temperatures and for tightly controlling the on-board range estimates that drivers see. As evidenced below, it appears in the Model 3 dashboard data that there is almost no change in available range in cold or hot conditions.

This lack of response in the winter is because Tesla’s on-board computers synthesize a consistent experience. In the real world, drivers do experience lower range in the winter and summer.

New to 2022, we have added observed, real-world range fluctuations to our Tesla data. The dotted line below shows the range as observed from on-board devices and energy usage. This shows a more expected decrease in winter range, although Tesla's thermal management is still great at controlling cold weather range loss.

Teslas will also limit regenerative braking in the winter to protect the battery from damaging charges when cold. Once the car warms up, regenerative braking will come back. Similarly, charging your Tesla at a Supercharger will be slow going until the battery warms up so Tesla recommends waiting until you’ve driven a bit to use a charging station.

As per the Norwegian Automobile Federation tests in 2020, Tesla Model 3 showed a 34% range reduction. The test conditions show only one data point for observed winter range and the Model 3 that was tested did not include a heat pump, which now comes standard. A heat pump will increase the cold weather range.

I think the key here is that this is all based on 'real world user, supplied' data. I can't comment for the accuracy or otherwise but it looks pretty well founded to me.