TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC
  1. TMC is currently READ ONLY.
    Click here for more info.

disappointed that Tesla hasn’t leveraged intelligent charging management to increase # of chargers

Discussion in 'Supercharging & Charging Infrastructure' started by BM3B, Nov 27, 2019.

  1. BM3B

    BM3B “beaver”

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2019
    Messages:
    697
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    I think there should be signs at V3 stations telling people to use V2 (regular) if their SOC is over 50%, that way if it’s busy then travelers with low SOC can charge quickly.

    Honestly, I am a little disappointed that Tesla hasn’t leveraged intelligent charging management to increase number of charging stalls. Average power utilization is going to be really poor with V3. They could have 2-4 SCer on a 250 kW feed, the max power will only be needed for 10 min max for each vehicle at a low SOC, the rest of the time they can share the power to accommodate more vehicles charging at the same time. Heck, I am fine with pairing to 75 kW if I need to have dinner or stretch my legs. The trade off is a little less predictability and consistent max power

    Perhaps they aren’t doing pairing with 250kW because of Semi charging needs (1 megawatt charging power I read).

    tl;dr supercharging can get more efficient and smarter.
     
  2. AMPd

    AMPd Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2012
    Messages:
    4,245
    Location:
    Northern California
    Perhaps they don’t want to invest time in doing that since the entire location will be upgraded to V3 anyways.
     
    • Like x 4
    • Informative x 1
  3. Big Earl

    Big Earl bnkwupt

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2017
    Messages:
    4,886
    Location:
    Springfield, VA
    V3 shares one ~550 kW charging cabinet across four stalls. Average power utilization should be quite high.
     
    • Disagree x 1
  4. AMPd

    AMPd Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2012
    Messages:
    4,245
    Location:
    Northern California
    That’s incorrect
    They share a 1 MW cabinet.
     
    • Informative x 2
  5. Big Dog

    Big Dog Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2016
    Messages:
    1,502
    Location:
    Irvine, CA
    Perhaps in the ideal world with unlimited resources, but why would should Tesla assume that speedy charging for those with a low SOC is more fair than those with 50%+? In other words, why is the low SOC'ers time worth more than the high SOC'ers time? Perhaps that high SOC'er is about to head into a really long leg?

    To me, first-come, first-served is the only way that makes sense.
     
  6. Big Earl

    Big Earl bnkwupt

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2017
    Messages:
    4,886
    Location:
    Springfield, VA
    Not according to the data plates on the charging cabinets.
     
    • Informative x 1
  7. AMPd

    AMPd Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2012
    Messages:
    4,245
    Location:
    Northern California
    Then I guess Tesla is lying, because they advertise V3 superchargers as being able to provide a max of 250kW
    How can 4 stalls achieve 250kW if there’s only 550 available.
     
  8. BM3B

    BM3B “beaver”

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2019
    Messages:
    697
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    But someone charging to 90% will draw only 30 kW the last 10 minutes, which means 220 kW is going unused (unless Tesla is doing its own active power management to route power to where it is needed most).
     
    • Like x 2
  9. AMPd

    AMPd Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2012
    Messages:
    4,245
    Location:
    Northern California
    Then you don’t know how supercharging works.
    If you arrive with 50% of battery capacity left then the V3 supercharger won’t make much of a difference in charging speed due to the charging taper. Common courtesy suggests you choose a v2 stall and leave the v3 one for someone who can take advantage of the speed.
     
    • Like x 2
  10. Big Earl

    Big Earl bnkwupt

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2017
    Messages:
    4,886
    Location:
    Springfield, VA
    V3 can provide a maximum of 250 kW. Just not to all four stalls simultaneously. Not a big deal since the 250 can only be achieved for a couple of minutes in a very narrow state of charge window.

    Here is the video that shows the data plates. My recollection was a bit off ... DC output is shown as 575 kW but input power is listed at 350 kVA maximum continuous.



    26414498-1513-4ABD-8CA6-D9A6219BC416.png
     
    • Informative x 2
  11. AMPd

    AMPd Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2012
    Messages:
    4,245
    Location:
    Northern California
    Faster Charging, No More Power Sharing
    V3 is a completely new architecture for Supercharging. A new 1MW power cabinet with a similar design to our utility-scale productssupports peak rates of up to 250kW per car.”

    That’s quite different than what tesla advertises.
     
    • Like x 1
  12. Big Earl

    Big Earl bnkwupt

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2017
    Messages:
    4,886
    Location:
    Springfield, VA
    Quite different, indeed.
     
  13. MP3Mike

    MP3Mike Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2016
    Messages:
    14,925
    Location:
    Oregon
    I could be wrong but normally the spec labels are what something is rated at continuously. They can peak much higher, just for "short" periods of time. The other thing you have to consider is that it has two inputs: AC input at 350 kVA (continuous) and DC input at 575kW and those are combined. So it seems to me it can do 250kW x 4 for short periods of time. (Which is all that you are likely to get even if you had 4 empty cars plug in at the same time.)
     
    • Informative x 2
    • Like x 2
  14. Big Dog

    Big Dog Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2016
    Messages:
    1,502
    Location:
    Irvine, CA
    I concur about common courtesy, which is more efficient for all, but that requires common knowledge.

    In the first place, there IS a difference in time charging; it may not be much, but it exists. But more importantly, there is ZERO way to essplain this to the masses (aka common knowledge). And I'm sure Tesla recognizes that educating hundreds of thousands of users on charge taper is a just not practical.
     
    • Like x 1
  15. BM3B

    BM3B “beaver”

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2019
    Messages:
    697
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    But Tesla doesn’t need to educate anyone, the NAV should just tell us “use stall 2B” for V2 if I am at 55% or “use stall 16A” for V3 if I am at 15%. It’s not rocket science, it’s almost 2020 after all. Look up what PowerFlex has been doing; simple and smart, efficient. Just tell me where to go Elon. I let him drive my car, they can optimize my charge
    :)
     
    • Like x 3
  16. Big Earl

    Big Earl bnkwupt

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2017
    Messages:
    4,886
    Location:
    Springfield, VA
    That’s the key. I hadn’t considered the AC and DC inputs being summed. This could partially explain why many Trans-Canada Highway locations are using 6 pedestals across 2 cabinets... there is no battery storage at many of those sites, so no additional DC power available (yet).
     
  17. bxr140

    bxr140 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2014
    Messages:
    2,607
    Location:
    Bay Area
    Yep, we’ve been asking for that for years. Tesla can direct based on maximizing site throughput, capping max load, avoiding underperforming pedestals, balancing hardware duty cycles, etc.

    The ‘it’s not going to help plugging into a 250 if you’re already below 150 on the taper’ is only a minor part of the equation.
     
  18. MP3Mike

    MP3Mike Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2016
    Messages:
    14,925
    Location:
    Oregon
    That isn't totally true. If the V2 stall has the paired stall already occupied by someone with a low SoC you would only get ~30kW of charging from it, where for a V3 you could get much more.
     
    • Funny x 1
  19. Big Earl

    Big Earl bnkwupt

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2017
    Messages:
    4,886
    Location:
    Springfield, VA
    I just came across this post from back in March. It all makes sense now - specs quoted below match what’s on the the data plate. Very clever design that will better optimize available power from the utility. With these, there is no need to direct people to specific stalls because power can be shared across all V3 stalls (up to 28).

     
  20. miimura

    miimura Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2013
    Messages:
    5,971
    Location:
    Los Altos, CA
    All of this AC + DC stuff and cabinet sharing makes sense. However, it does not change the fact that in aggregate, there is only 130kW per stall available across the whole site. It just means that the likelihood of someone being throttled due to lack of AC power is very low.

    If the Powerpacks at Kettleman are connected by DC, then the AC limit is even less likely to be encountered. However, the Kettleman mixed V2 & V3 site and the Santa Rosa dedicated V3 site both have an inverter, so I assumed they would just be doing demand offset to the utility. However, the batteries could also be on the V3 Supercharger DC bus, bypassing the inverter if they wanted to augment the DC charging straight from the battery instead of doing DC-AC-DC conversions, as would be required for a pure V2 Supercharger site.
     

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.
  • Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


    SUPPORT TMC