Disappointed with the D unveiling

[Krugerrand]

We're not talking about a box of cereal here. We're talking about a $100k car.

To someone else that box cereal is as important, perhaps more so, because it feeds their child. Money means different things to different people and holds different value. It's unfortunate that the outcome is sometimes ugly.

Someone else said something about being 12 further up.

Yes, what I said was that I remembered being 12. It's true, I do remember being 12. Certainly I was implying 'something'. What you chose it to mean was entirely of your doing, not mine. Where the comment upset you, it made others content. People are funny that way.

 

[breser]

So are you disappointed guys going to switch to LEASING a from now on, so you won't tie up such a big investment in rapidly changing technology?

Asked and answered, further up the thread. Leasing is much more expensive right now due to the loss of the $7,500 tax credit without any compensation for that in the lease. See further up for the more complete answer.

Yes, what I said was that I remembered being 12. It's true, I do remember being 12. Certainly I was implying 'something'. What you chose it to mean was entirely of your doing, not mine. Where the comment upset you, it made others content. People are funny that way.

I honestly wasn't sure how to take your comment. Wasn't clear if you meant you could remember what it's like to be unhappy in this way or if you meant I was acting like a 12 year old or both. Based on the reactions of some people I'm sure how they took it.

As to this thread and others like it I'm tired of it. I think I've explained this as completely as I could. Tesla could have done better in this case. There are plenty of people who are obviously unwilling to accept that Tesla can do better. What I can say is that if this sort of situation turns up again (new hardware starts appearing on vehicles) in mid stream I'll be advising people about to take delivery to refuse it if it doesn't come with the new feature (and are willing to eat their deposit and have to reorder). Tesla obviously is going to apply their sales agreement to the letter (as is their right) and so should customers. I suspect if customers start doing that Tesla will suddenly care about these sorts of situations (granted that they still could show that they care since they haven't had time to respond to my concerns, but they certainly weren't proactive). Especially, if it happens near a quarter end, since every customer that does that is one less sale they made that quarter.

 

[Krugerrand]

I honestly wasn't sure how to take your comment. Wasn't clear if you meant you could remember what it's like to be unhappy in this way or if you meant I was acting like a 12 year old or both. Based on the reactions of some people I'm sure how they took it.

That's why I wrote it as I did. I left the choice (you wanted the choice, right?) up to you (and others). :wink:

 

[anticitizen13.7]

To someone else that box cereal is as important, perhaps more so, because it feeds their child. Money means different things to different people and holds different value. It's unfortunate that the outcome is sometimes ugly.



Yes, what I said was that I remembered being 12. It's true, I do remember being 12. Certainly I was implying 'something'. What you chose it to mean was entirely of your doing, not mine. Where the comment upset you, it made others content. People are funny that way.

In the context of your past posting history, I think longtime forum members would reasonably infer your response as ascerbic, lol. Would I expect you to pull punches in a debate? Certainly not.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

these people are not complaining because something bad happened to them, because it didn't. They are complaining that something good happened to someone else.

spot on!

+100

 

[anticitizen13.7]

spot on!

+100

This is NOT about the people who got the sensor suite.

This IS about Tesla's relationship with customers.

 

[bigdomer]

Edit: For what it's worth, I don't think the Tesla lease is a good deal. You lose out on the $7,500 tax credit and Tesla does adjust for that in their leasing price (they don't report a profit so don't get it either). It's probably a better deal to take their financing with the buy back guarantee. Which I believe comes out better from math someone else posted earlier, I didn't bother to do that either, mostly because I planned to keep the car for a long time.

I think that this depends on the terms of the loan. I posted a thread last week on my decision to go with the personal lease vs buy back. In my state, Tech CU was the only loan option for buy back. I chose a 7 year term, which drives the rate to 4.24%. When you look at a 36 month execution of the buy back, I concluded that this was a wash versus the lease (total out of pocket cash). This even considers the tax credit on the buy side. Since the lease money factor interest rate equivalent is only 2.5% vs 4.24% at TCU, the rate spread essentially cancels out the benefit of the tax credit. Obviously if one is able to do the shorter term loan at 2.99% then there would be some credit benefit.

Given the announcement of the P85D, I am glad I decided to lease. It is worth the peace of mind to me to have no downside risk other than the lease payments. I also like to upgrade every 30 to 36 months.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

The only solution I've heard so far was to hold off on delivering the hardware until the announcement was made.

That is how tech companies handle new product rollouts and Tesla should as well. Giving some group of buyers sensors and not another, who ordered at the same time, is crap. This shows disorganization inside of Tesla and a disconnect between sales/marketing and manufacturing. It seems that manufacturing does what it wants to and then the rest of the company is left to pick up the pieces. This is not a sustainable strategy and is one that will tick off a lot of people. The fix is simple. Announce and then ship, not the other way around.

- - - Updated - - -

What did they advertise? If they advertised that they are selling a 32bit A6, and some random people get a 64bit A7 instead, those people would be extremely happy, and the others shouldn't feel bad because they got exactly what was advertised.

It's easy to tell people how to feel if you are not impacted by the events being discussed. Put yourself in the shoes of someone in this situation. Even though I bought my car over a year ago, I can understand why people are upset that others who ordered at the same time received additional hardware that would enable some exciting features in the near future. Those who don't have the hardware are being cut out of that, and for no other reason than a decision made at the factory level.

That's not cool. Saying that customers got what they paid for is obvious, but some clearly received more than what they paid for at the same time as the others. That's not how you treat customers. You can tell people how to feel until you're blue in the face, but human nature is human nature. If Tesla wants to stop pissing off customers, they need to understand and address this issue.

 

[aviators99]

I make a choice and stick with it. My wife could be replaced with a newer model but I was happy with my choice and will stick with her. Ditto the car.

Hmm...Not sure if this is comparing apples to apples...What additional features would the newer model have? Please be specific.
:tongue:

 

[AmpedRealtor]

spot on!

+100

This is NOT about the people who got the sensor suite.

This IS about Tesla's relationship with customers.

What Tesla did is really unfair to those who ordered at the same time, but did not get the sensors. It's not unfair to those who took delivery prior to any of this happening.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Yes, what I said was that I remembered being 12. It's true, I do remember being 12. Certainly I was implying 'something'. What you chose it to mean was entirely of your doing, not mine.

So, what did you imply?

Where the comment upset you, it made others content. People are funny that way.

Of course. Usually the person being attacked feels upset, and those against the attacked person feel content when someone made an attack they approve of. People are "funny" that way. That's what kids do on the playground. They also run to mommy and say they did nothing when confronted... The intellectual dishonesty in your message did take things to an adult level of weaseling, though.

I'll just leave this here:

Quite frankly, I don't think anyone who isn't in this situation of missing this stuff by such a narrow margin can possibly understand how it feels to be in the situation.

I remember when I was twelve...

Getting back on topic - judging by the number of disappointment threads related to the "D", I would say perhaps Tesla should and could have done something differently. There are no perfect solutions, but maybe there are some worthy ideas to consider for the next time around. Hopefully Tesla is listening and surprises people positively and beyond what we are used to in the industry.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

What Tesla did is really unfair to those who ordered at the same time, but did not get the sensors. It's not unfair to those who took delivery prior to any of this happening.

Ah ok. I agree with you on that.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Ah ok. I agree with you on that.

Tesla is, of course, not the only car company to do such a thing. European rolling model-year changes often result in similar things, although this one was probably a lot more major than anything usually there - the amount of new sensors people got is exceptional.

So, this is a difficult topic for sure. I sympathize both with the buyers who felt slighted and Tesla as well. Hopefully a dialog can improve things down the road for all concerned. Better information towards customers around the cut-off point for example might be a smart thing to do - just like free returns keep retail customers happy and decrease costs and improves customer satisfaction in the long run, surely the car industry can innovate in this area too in some ways.

 

[ToddRLockwood]

I could have sworn that Elon had hinted a few days ago that part of what was being unveiled was something that current Model S users would be able to upgrade to. Perhaps I read wrong. He didn't make any announcements (at least in the live feed I just watched) of anything that current Model S owners would be able to upgrade to/retrofit... Has anyone heard different?

Jeremy

I'm not sure exactly what Elon said prior to the D unveiling, but I imagine what he meant to say was "current Model S owners would be able to trade up to the D." Tesla does accept used Model S cars for trade-in. I can see where retrofitting the autopilot hardware would be very tricky for the service centers—cutting holes for sensors in the fenders, etc.

As the nifty as the D is, personally I think it would be prudent to allow the new dual drive train, electric braking system, and the autopilot to mature for a year or so before jumping in, especially if you already own a Model S that you enjoy driving.

 

[Adm]

I have to say I am disappointed by the level of disappointment by Tesla Model S owners. What were you thinking when you bought this car? Did you really believe the Tesla Model S was a finished product? Tesla has improved on the Model S from the day Steve Jurvetson got the first car of the line and on the way has disappointed people that have bought just before a modification. News flash, you have bought a novel product by a novel company that is growing at an explosive rate. Tesla is developing the Model S faster than Apple does with the Iphone, but can you complain Apple brought out the Iphone 6 just weeks before you bought your Iphone 5S? No Dumbo! It's the price you pay for buying a product on the cutting edge of technology. Of course a Tesla Model S is many times more expensive than a Iphone, but if you can't bear this kind of disappointment wait another 5 years to buy a Tesla. However, than still you can be left disappointed if Tesla introduces a new battery pack that is 2/3 the weight and volume of the present technology.
I've bought a Renault Zoe with a 60-90mi range that probably is worthless in 5 years, because who will want an EV with only 60mi range in the winter than? Do I complain? No, I knew this was the price to pay as an medium early adopter (this to acknowledge the many people who bought an EV before I did). Sorry people, stop whining and celebrate the giant leaps Tesla is making compared to the rest of the auto industry (Renault included).

 

[Krugerrand]

In the context of your past posting history, I think longtime forum members would reasonably infer your response as ascerbic, lol. Would I expect you to pull punches in a debate? Certainly not.

Not sure brezer is a longtime forum member or not, but true enough. The choice still remains that of the reader regardless of my intent. (I can not offend anyone who's not, first, willing to be offended, anymore than I can make someone laugh who's not, first, willing to laugh.)

This IS about Tesla's relationship with customers.

Like any relationship, the best ones are those where both parties listen, respect one another, have equal importance, are willing to compromise, etc... The onus is not entirely on Tesla, as some seem to be saying/suggesting/implying simply based on them being a purchaser of an expensive item. I don't buy into 'the customer is always right', because sometimes they are not. And since money is simply 'paper' to me (and really nowadays it's mostly just numbers moving around via the Internet) and more can always be made, I don't place nearly the significance on it as some. And no, I'm not monetarily rich. Money is what I need to put a roof over my head and food on my table, it doesn't, however, define me as it does others.

Tesla has proven over the years that they will do everything in their power to make things as right as they can for those who feel they've been wronged in some way. I have great confidence Tesla will do the same again. Indeed, are they not allowing people to switch their current orders without penalty?

Will Elon choose to do things differently next time? I have no idea. There's valid reasons for every step he takes. Many of those reasons we are not privvy to. But he will have heard the voices here, and weighed the situation and outcome. If he feels it was a mistake, he won't do it again.

*group hug*

- - - Updated - - -

So, what did you imply?

Does it really matter in the scheme of things?

The intellectual dishonesty in your message did take things to an adult level of weaseling, though.

If you say so. :wink:

Getting back on topic - judging by the number of disappointment threads related to the "D", I would say perhaps Tesla should and could have done something differently.

The number of threads does not represent your conclusion, it merely means that those OP's didn't bother to search for a thread of that topic before starting their own. Notwithstanding, within those threads is a large volume of posts of understanding and support of Tesla's business position.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Does it really matter in the scheme of things?

No. But let's just say it is not very believable that you meant no offence by the 12 year-old reference. It would probably be easier to discuss our opinions when we are upfront about them.

The number of threads does not represent your conclusion, it merely means that those OP's didn't bother to search for a thread of that topic before starting their own. Notwithstanding, within those threads is a large volume of posts of understanding and support of Tesla's business position.

Oh, I agree the number of threads (or even posts) on a forum such as this certainly is no scientific proof of anything - in either direction. There could be far more or far less disappointed people, relatively speaking.

That said, putting all this in the context of wider experience with car ownership, such a massive rolling change in standard features in a car certainly can leave a lot of buyers disgruntled. Not that I remember many car companies doing such a big change that some get and others don't. Usually it is something minor like a few changed trim pieces or a small feature change (major facelifts usually don't get a rolling change), so the frame of reference is limited for sure.

What do you know, we got our first "No"'s in the poll: Simple yes or no - are you satisfied with your Tesla vehicle?

Didn't expect that a few days ago.

 

[balabanshik]

What Tesla did is really unfair to those who ordered at the same time, but did not get the sensors. It's not unfair to those who took delivery prior to any of this happening.

Technically, it is unfair to ALL owners without the new A-list hardware (what should we call them? "nonsensical"? "desensitized"?... :wink: ), but to varying degrees.
Every one of them suffers the implicit car value hit and insurance premium hit, since the car doesn't have, and will never have, a prominent safety feature. The effect tapers off with the age of the car, as natural depreciation increases.
And every one of them loses on the peace of mind that comes with a big safety feature, but I'd say the effect is hardly noticeable against the joy of driving a Model S.

These people are not complaining because something bad happened to them, because it didn't. They are complaining that something good happened to someone else.

1. A hit in the car's resale value and another in insurance premiums is "nothing bad" now?
2. Please take some time to read through the explanations of what it is exactly that we are concerned with, before making blanket statements of moral superiority. Incorrect ones, too.

 

[Tupelo]

That's why I wrote it as I did. I left the choice (you wanted the choice, right?) up to you (and others). :wink:

I have no doubt at all that you are quite capable of knowing what it's like to be twelve.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

Not sure brezer is a longtime forum member or not, but true enough. The choice still remains that of the reader regardless of my intent. (I can not offend anyone who's not, first, willing to be offended, anymore than I can make someone laugh who's not, first, willing to laugh.)

Tesla has proven over the years that they will do everything in their power to make things as right as they can for those who feel they've been wronged in some way. I have great confidence Tesla will do the same again. Indeed, are they not allowing people to switch their current orders without penalty?

I'm not sure it's a choice. I've never found your posts to be offensive. I don't think I could choose to be offended, but whatever the case, I'm glad you offered a group hug for reconciliation

I have no doubt at all that you are quite capable of knowing what it's like to be twelve.

She wouldn't be the only one. I'm still 13.7!!!