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Disappointing traction control - is it me?

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I think that's what both Tesla and people in discussion have missed. It's one thing to go straight as fast as possible, it's another to lumber around confidently and slowly in snow and ice.

+1 for FWD, +2 for AWD. RWD is fun but not the easiest, safest method in most cases people will actually encounter in daily driving. I do find the point in that thread interesting about FWD loss of traction means loss of steering as well. This is of course very true and why the traction control systems are very effective in these cars. They not only keep the spin under control, but doing so keeps your steering working as good as possible. If you flick out the rear on a RWD vehicle, good luck and may your skills and luck be in your favour. Traction control with a FWD eliminates most of the negative aspect of FWD, while keeping all of the positives.
When you feel as though traction is lost does pressing MORE on the accelerator sort things out? I moved farther south (NoVA to effectively Hampton Roads) and don’t get (much if any) snow. With our Forester if it can’t get grip by moving torque around then it reduces power (and you get flashing traction light). With my 3 we haven’t got enough (uh any) snow for me to see if adding power allows it to sort itself out like the Forester does.
 
When you feel as though traction is lost does pressing MORE on the accelerator sort things out? I moved farther south (NoVA to effectively Hampton Roads) and don’t get (much if any) snow. With our Forester if it can’t get grip by moving torque around then it reduces power (and you get flashing traction light). With my 3 we haven’t got enough (uh any) snow for me to see if adding power allows it to sort itself out like the Forester does.

No... but sometimes yes?

This is a complex answer, sorry. If the loss of traction is on flat ground and I give it the beans, it mostly just spins harder and kicks out the rear even more. There is a limit to this in which the traction control finally kicks in where it may not have otherwise. In both situations (keeping steady vs. giving more pedal input), I can consistently respond to the lack of traction faster than the car does.

If the loss of traction is around a corner, giving it more pedal input again will cause it to kick out more. However, it will more aggressively correct this situation than a straight line. If I had let it continue to slide out, I'd say it responds more or less similarly.

The Model 3 does seem to reduce power as part of its traction control methods, depending on the scenario. It also pulses the brakes individually to regain control. Essentially, it's a fairly classic system even if it doesn't behave as good as I'd like it to.
 
It would be hard to get a Spark EV to the snow from San Diego! haha.
I was just pointing out that one of the reasons that FWD cars are better than RWD cars in the snow is that they all have more weight over their drive wheels. In dry conditions RWD is superior for acceleration (and cornering) because the weight transfers to the rear. In slippery conditions you can't accelerate fast enough to get significant weight transfer. With 50/50 weight on snow I would guess that RWD would be slightly faster than FWD but FWD would be easier to drive.

I don't buy the weight over engine. That certainly helps. I think it's more about driving wheels that steer. I respect someone disagreeing why I like FWD better.

Let's not get to caught up on that we all agree Model 3 should have an optional mode to address this issue.
 
The thing I find somewhat counterintuitive is how the car is often times the least predictable at light throttle in low traction conditions. Full throttle and the traction control is already pulling power to limit slip, and the front end pulls you out of too much trouble. But if you’re well under the limit of the tires around a corner and just whiff the throttle, the car reacts to the slip somewhat slowly and 100% of the power appears to go to the rear, so it slides. This can happen with constant throttle too if you hit an icy patch mid turn. Normally people are used to ‘seeing’ this ahead of time due to strong front biases. Even with a 50/50 split it increases the chances you would understeer, while also cutting the effort for the rear tires.

It’s not even a question, FWD requires less driver effort to drive in snow. Plus when you give it too much throttle the car tends to just push through a turn and stabilize itself faster than if the rear slides out. A rear bias is quite fun when the front end drags you out of too much trouble. But that really only happens in M3 when you’re deep in the throttle.
 
When you feel as though traction is lost does pressing MORE on the accelerator sort things out? I moved farther south (NoVA to effectively Hampton Roads) and don’t get (much if any) snow. With our Forester if it can’t get grip by moving torque around then it reduces power (and you get flashing traction light). With my 3 we haven’t got enough (uh any) snow for me to see if adding power allows it to sort itself out like the Forester does.

Yes. In some situations. Like when stuck on a hill in deep snow and it won't move. Just goose it and it will go.

But in some situations the rear bias could cause you to lose control and goosing it isn't gonna get you out of trouble.
One of the big reasons for AWD is prevention.
 
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I created a new Feature Request on this. I don't even own Model 3 any more. But this issue did bug me.

And a nice solution could spill over onto all Tesla's (like Slip Mode).

I did search on all Model 3 feature Requests with snow in it and didn't find it.

Please VOTE !!

MoreTesla.com
 
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While we’re asking for things, maybe pop in a little axle bias slider for the advanced users with estimated range reduction.

go right ahead.

Likewise, I wish there was a slider for acceleration from Chill to Ludicrous rather than discrete steps (only two steps on Model 3 Performance, Chill and Sport). But a slider doesn't sound as good as Insane and Ludicrous now does it.
 
I have a full winter on my Stealth P3D using Pirelli Sottozero II's and have driven my wife's LR RWD Model 3 on the OEM MMX 4's in the snow and ice a couple of times. I also love driving in winter conditions and have driven a wide range of FWD, RWD and AWD gas cars through winter storms (usually on curvy mountain roads but also across the prairies).

IMO, the Model 3 does very well in snow and ice although it does give the driver more leeway to put the power to the tires even when slip is detected. The "nanny" is very permissive. :D That said, there is a sweet spot with the throttle modulation when it's really slick that will keep you well connected (no one else in the car will be able to detect any slip). You just need to drive like you are on a very slippery surface. The traction control will assume you want to maintain traction (and it's very fast and seamless about kicking in). It's only when you use the accelerator to tell the "nanny" you want to play that she gives you more leeway. I love it! But when driven gently, even on extremely slick surfaces, the nannies are super fast reacting, so fast you might think they are not even active. But as soon as you get a little frisky with the throttle she lets you play.

I think a contributing factor to some people claiming the nanny is too permissive is related to the way the tread blocks will wear on a car with as much effortless torque as the Model 3 has. If you use the accelerator much on wet or dry pavement even moderately (this is the equivalent of flooring it at high RPM's on ordinary cars) the tread blocks will wear into a sawtooth pattern. Especially when using winter tires with their softer rubber compounds. This sawtooth wear pattern on the tread blocks from acceleration creates what I refer to as "directional traction". Specifically, it reduces traction on snow and ice under acceleration and increases it under braking.

I installed winter tires on my P3D yesterday afternoon (the same set I used all last winter) and the sawtooth wear pattern was rather pronounced. I really don't mind this at all because the AWD of the P3D has all the climbing (and accelerating) ability I need in the snow and ice and it actually improves emergency stopping on snow and ice (and control under braking on snow and ice). I noticed this same effect on my FWD Volvo S80 T-6 where it was more problematic because that car was below average in snow/ice hill-climbing ability even though it was above average at cornering on snow/ice. But here's the thing - My AWD Mazda CX-5 never developed this sawtooth wear pattern because it only had 155 hp. Even though I often drove it semi-rally style (pedal to the metal) it simply didn't have the torque to the wheels to get a pronounced sawtooth treadwear pattern. It had pretty good nannies but they seemed overly intrusive when trying to drive in a sporting style. They were very competent but no fun at all.

So, yes, treadwear patterns can affect your perception of how well a car maintains traction under acceleration on snow and ice.I have played with "Chill Mode" and setting regen on "Low" when driving through the winter wonderland that is the North Cascades with all of it's grades and switchbacks but have settled on leaving it in standard accel and regen mode because I don't see any advantage to the "softer" modes. "Chill Mode" is particularly bad to use in snow and ice because it adds a small time delay and reduces repeatability of throttle application. I absolutely hate it.

I've found normal regen to have very fast-acting traction control (it cuts/reduces regen when slip is detected) but it still leaves enough regen braking that the tires can form a wall of snow or slush in front of them which increases braking under those conditions. When I add additional friction braking and more slip is detected, the regen braking backs off even more. If it's slippery enough the regen braking will back off completely in order that directional control can be maintained. So I have no issue driving down steep hills with full regen and simply modulating the regen with the throttle (and the directional nannies are kicking in as needed to help maintain directional control as well).

I find the Model 3 is the easiest and most relaxing car to drive fast in the snow and ice, uphill or down, without losing control or feeling like I'm fighting the nannies. Yes, it's a bit "looser" than any other nanny equipped car I've driven but it maintains directional control better even when it's loose. And I absolutely hate the abrupt way that most car nannies cut power the instant they detect a tiny bit of slip. The fast-acting but not overly invasive TC is why I think the Model 3 works better. This is comparing it every other car, truck and SUV I've driven hard in the snow including a long list of Volvo's and AWD Subarus, AWD Mazda, FWD VW's and AWD Ford pickups. I'm not counting all the cars that were pre-nanny. That said, the AWD and Performance Model 3's have different software from each other and I've only driven the Performance and RWD Models in the snow and ice. So maybe the AWD (non-perf) is somehow different. But I doubt it.
 
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Did they change it? I thought the two options were "Chill" and "Standard".

I thought Performance was Chill and Sport and all other Model 3 said Chill and Standard. My non Performance X shows Chill and Standard. Doesn’t matter what they are called. A slider between the min and max for your respective performance range would be cool.
 
I have a full winter on my Stealth P3D using Pirelli Sottozero II's and have driven my wife's LR RWD Model 3 on the OEM MMX 4's in the snow and ice a couple of times. I also love driving in winter conditions and have driven a wide range of FWD, RWD and AWD gas cars through winter storms (usually on curvy mountain roads but also across the prairies).

IMO, the Model 3 does very well in snow and ice although it does give the driver more leeway to put the power to the tires even when slip is detected. The "nanny" is very permissive. :D That said, there is a sweet spot with the throttle modulation when it's really slick that will keep you well connected (no one else in the car will be able to detect any slip). You just need to drive like you are on a very slippery surface. The traction control will assume you want to maintain traction (and it's very fast and seamless about kicking in). It's only when you use the accelerator to tell the "nanny" you want to play that she gives you more leeway. I love it! But when driven gently, even on extremely slick surfaces, the nannies are super fast reacting, so fast you might think they are not even active. But as soon as you get a little frisky with the throttle she lets you play.

I think a contributing factor to some people claiming the nanny is too permissive is related to the way the tread blocks will wear on a car with as much effortless torque as the Model 3 has. If you use the accelerator much on wet or dry pavement even moderately (this is the equivalent of flooring it at high RPM's on ordinary cars) the tread blocks will wear into a sawtooth pattern. Especially when using winter tires with their softer rubber compounds. This sawtooth wear pattern on the tread blocks from acceleration creates what I refer to as "directional traction". Specifically, it reduces traction on snow and ice under acceleration and increases it under braking.

I installed winter tires on my P3D yesterday afternoon (the same set I used all last winter) and the sawtooth wear pattern was rather pronounced. I really don't mind this at all because the AWD of the P3D has all the climbing (and accelerating) ability I need in the snow and ice and it actually improves emergency stopping on snow and ice (and control under braking on snow and ice). I noticed this same effect on my FWD Volvo S80 T-6 where it was more problematic because that car was below average in snow/ice hill-climbing ability even though it was above average at cornering on snow/ice. But here's the thing - My AWD Mazda CX-5 never developed this sawtooth wear pattern because it only had 155 hp. Even though I often drove it semi-rally style (pedal to the metal) it simply didn't have the torque to the wheels to get a pronounced sawtooth treadwear pattern. It had pretty good nannies but they seemed overly intrusive when trying to drive in a sporting style. They were very competent but no fun at all.

So, yes, treadwear patterns can affect your perception of how well a car maintains traction under acceleration on snow and ice.I have played with "Chill Mode" and setting regen on "Low" when driving through the winter wonderland that is the North Cascades with all of it's grades and switchbacks but have settled on leaving it in standard accel and regen mode because I don't see any advantage to the "softer" modes. "Chill Mode" is particularly bad to use in snow and ice because it adds a small time delay and reduces repeatability of throttle application. I absolutely hate it.

I've found normal regen to have very fast-acting traction control (it cuts/reduces regen when slip is detected) but it still leaves enough regen braking that the tires can form a wall of snow or slush in front of them which increases braking under those conditions. When I add additional friction braking and more slip is detected, the regen braking backs off even more. If it's slippery enough the regen braking will back off completely in order that directional control can be maintained. So I have no issue driving down steep hills with full regen and simply modulating the regen with the throttle (and the directional nannies are kicking in as needed to help maintain directional control as well).

I find the Model 3 is the easiest and most relaxing car to drive fast in the snow and ice, uphill or down, without losing control or feeling like I'm fighting the nannies. Yes, it's a bit "looser" than any other nanny equipped car I've driven but it maintains directional control better even when it's loose. And I absolutely hate the abrupt way that most car nannies cut power the instant they detect a tiny bit of slip. The fast-acting but not overly invasive TC is why I think the Model 3 works better. This is comparing it every other car, truck and SUV I've driven hard in the snow including a long list of Volvo's and AWD Subarus, AWD Mazda, FWD VW's and AWD Ford pickups. I'm not counting all the cars that were pre-nanny. That said, the AWD and Performance Model 3's have different software from each other and I've only driven the Performance and RWD Models in the snow and ice. So maybe the AWD (non-perf) is somehow different. But I doubt it.

Try driving a Model X with the same snows for a week. Night and day difference. You are one of the few folks still in denial ;) left. Don’t feel bad, I was too for a while. There are Video’s and CANBus graphs of Model 3 AWD showing basically it’s a RWD unless you punch it. It does not need much (punch) to activate front wheels. But you want them active constantly with some torque while cruising or starting in all situations and it does not do that. And most drivers feel it. I don’t don’t think it needs more than rear. But it should at least have some torque in front. Currently it’s ZERO torque in front (RWD) !!!

What you are saying is the a Model 3 AWD is a great RWD car in the snow. I agree. It’s always running in “Eco” more efficient rear motor mode.

The X Raven runs in “Eco” more efficient front motor mode. I’d like the same option on the X to have all 4 wheels always have some torque in snow mode. Not sure what pre-Raven does but I think it does have torque on all 4 because the motors are equally efficient.

The Tesla’s are all biased for efficiency. Regardless of weak traction situations.

Track mode probably has torque on all 4 but it turns off some other traction control stuff you probably want on in the snow.

Model 3 AWD 45-70 Auto Pilot with 5 mph increments. Zero power to front wheels the whole time.

Borrowed from @scottf200

Scott is there a graph like this around in track mode?

qAydioq.jpg
 
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Try driving a Model X with the same snows for a week. Night and day difference. You are one of the few folks still in denial ;) left. Don’t feel bad, I was too for a while. There are Video’s and CANBus graphs of Model 3 AWD showing basically it’s a RWD unless you punch it. It does not need much (punch) to activate front wheels. But you want them active constantly with some torque while cruising or starting in all situations and it does not do that. And most drivers feel it. I don’t don’t think it needs more than rear. But it should at least have some torque in front. Currently it’s ZERO torque in front (RWD) !!!

Here's what I actually feel when I drive my Stealth 3 on very slippery surfaces:

When the rear tires begin to slip the tiniest amount under gentle acceleration it immediately reduces power to the rear while simultaneously applying power to the front in an amount equal to the rear reduction. This is so seamless I imagine many don't even detect it is happening at all. Then, if it detects front traction has broken it is very pro-active about reducing power enough to maintain steerage but it will allow the rear a somewhat generous amount of slippage, the amount being proportional to how deep you press the accelerator beyond the available traction limit. This all happens so fast it doesn't appear to be transferring power around at all, it just feels like the rear is a little loose. These observations are deducted from a lot of experience driving a lot of cars under such conditions (it happens too fast to feel the power being transferred front to back).

What you are saying is the a Model 3 AWD is a great RWD car in the snow. I agree. It’s always running in “Eco” more efficient rear motor mode.

I can see how some might come to that conclusion. But, no, I can climb a hell of a lot faster on a snowy grade in my AWD P Model 3 than ANY other AWD I've ever driven (normalized for tire differences). It literally rockets forward in the slick! It's scary how quickly it can reach 60 mph on a sheet of clean snow/ice. The only way it could do this is with all four wheels clawing for maximum traction and being extremely fast reacting to changes in traction from microsecond to microsecond. There is absolutely zero doubt in my mind about this!

Here's a tip for the fastest acceleration in snow/ice: Don't mash the pedal all the way because the nanny will think you want to play as it will transfer too much power to the rear while maintaining perfect traction (and not much drive) from the front. It will actually be slower than rolling onto the throttle just enough to engage the traction control throughout your run. You don't have to be super-precise about it but don't give it far more throttle than it could hope to take. I had a motorcycle once that, due to it's lack of constant velocity carbs, required similar throttle control. For the fastest roll-on acceleration, it was necessary to roll on the throttle at a rate compatible with the amount of power the engine was capable of producing at any given rpm. Giving it more throttle than it could use didn't really cause it to obviously bog down but it didn't give you it's best either. This actually made it more fun to ride because it rewarded the rider for being one with the machine. The Performance Model 3 is the same and I have a hard time believing the regular AWD is not similar (but I don't know that).


Track mode probably has torque on all 4 but it turns off some other traction control stuff you probably want on in the snow.

I have ripped up the mountain corners and switchbacks (some of them very tight downhill off-camber turns) in track Mode and the important nannies are still there to save you. It's a VERY easy car to drive fast on snow and ice, even in Track Mode.

Model 3 AWD 45-70 Auto Pilot with 5 mph increments. Zero power to front wheels the whole time.

Borrowed from @scottf200

Scott is there a graph like this around in track mode?

qAydioq.jpg

Sigh...This graph has zero relevance to this discussion (because the rear wheels were not slipping at all). The Model 3 does drive like a rear wheel drive car but only until it detects ANY slippage from the rear tires under acceleration. And it doesn't take much to start sending torque to the front. There is no way I could rocket to 60 mph so quickly in snotty, slippery and variable conditions if it were not sending prodigious amounts of torque to the front wheels. And, yes, with heavy throttle inputs in the slick it will send an excessive amount to the rear. I like this because it fixes what killed me about the nannies on every other car I've ever driven (that had electronic nannies), their overly heavy-handed and crude babysitting of the throttle. I've never used nannies that reacted as quickly to variable traction situations either.

You need to get out and drive your Performance Model 3 more in the snow and ice. You don't even need to turn on track mode to go fast. Track mode is tuned for pavement although it will still offer enough error correction in the snow and ice to keep reasonable people out of trouble. It's pretty obvious that Tesla's philosophy when they tuned the traction control was to protect the car from loss of control while simultaneously believing that humans basically know what they are doing. This is a powerful car so just realize that heavy-handed throttle control in the snow and ice is not necessarily going to give you what you want unless you are just looking for a little rear-end hooliganism. If you feel the back end break loose, easing off the throttle will actually transfer more torque to the front. Maximum torque to the front happens when you are always asking for a little more throttle than conditions would allow (without nannies).

I have much more limited experience with my wife's LR RWD in the snow and ice but I noticed the same thing - for maximum acceleration in slippery conditions you want to keep the throttle input closer to the range of available traction. Otherwise, the nanny will think you want to play. I find it very intuitive and empowering. Simple, practical and fun (if you want).
 
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This is so seamless I imagine many don't even detect it is happening at all.
In my experience it is far from seamless. I'd like torque to all four wheels so I don't slip in the first place. If I accelerate from a stop while turning in the snow the car will yaw back and forth as it transfers power back and forth between the front and rear wheels. It's quite annoying and I don't believe it's faster than true AWD. I haven't driven it this season in the snow so maybe it has improved.
 
In my experience it is far from seamless. I'd like torque to all four wheels so I don't slip in the first place. If I accelerate from a stop while turning in the snow the car will yaw back and forth as it transfers power back and forth between the front and rear wheels. It's quite annoying and I don't believe it's faster than true AWD. I haven't driven it this season in the snow so maybe it has improved.

Exactly, most situations when in poor traction scenarios, all cars are struggling to maintain their best grip. You want to minimize ANY slippage at all times, if you can.

That tiny moment of RWD spin, could put you in a spin. Let's say you're on a curve. You don't realize your on black ice. And you give a touch of throttle (for any good reason). Enough throttle to boost the rear, but not enough to engage front (which is what happens on most of your driving). That small slip in the rear wheel could start a spin. And you're toast once you do.

Sure, there are situations (probably many), you can work with it, with how it works. But you shouldn't have to even think about it. Nor does the average driver know how best to optimize what it does. It's just an unnecessary lack of performance that should be available on such a high capable vehicle.

If some drivers don't like it, just don't turn it on.