Another classic camalaio all-responses-at-once post....
I created a feature request here: MoreTesla.com
Please upvote if you agree!
The answer is very simple. The rear motor in the Model 3 is much more efficient than the front motor. To maximize efficiency the car only sends power to the rear motor at low throttle unless wheel slip is detected. It does not drive like a true AWD car in slippery conditions. They should add a 50/50 torque split winter mode.
I'm pretty sure we're in agreement with each other, but I don't care about efficiency in this case, I care about sure-footed movement!
I'm not sure there's a one true way for AWD systems - they range from amazing (torsen, symmetric) to nearly useless (toyota hybrid, some early haldex.)
But I'm surprised at this result - Tesla should be able to do a lot better than this, especially with their history and data on the S/X. They know exactly how much torque it started slipping at, they know the temperature, they should be able to adjust power flow dynamically on the fly for best results in the snow or on ice, with no need for a user to set a mode. It's a usually very smart car.
You know, something like this:
Climate Change: 2014 Tesla Model S P85D
Many AWD variants have their downsides, absolutely. Usually the issue is related to open differentials (problem for most vehicles, AWD or not) and then also the front/rear split. My Honda Crosstour was somewhere between good enough and useless depending on the scenario (it mostly helped at low speeds, which is exactly where I want it to help). I'd argue most AWD systems overall help to some extent despite how they handle the open diffs and splits, while the AWD Model 3 only helps for raw performance.
Your impressions are entirely in line with my experiences as well. The AWD model has dynamics closer to a RWD car in snow.
I find this to be preferable, but its concerning for the average person buying AWD for 'confidence' in winter. They could use a winter mode with a front bias for sure. Model 3 AWD with its stock all seasons is absolutely the 'worst' winter car ive driven so far, at least for the typical AWD buyer. Its brilliant for the enthusiast, but likely horrifying for someone just trying to get where they're going. The traction control is really slow to send power to the front, and the stability control isn't always fast enough to stop the car from spinning under throttle.
Good snow tires help quite a lot. It gives the system more feedback and authority to fix the problem.
You may have missed it, but I definitely have snow tires. I've used them every winter. When ice is routinely present here it's just not wise to skip them, AWD or otherwise. The rubber is the only factor that ultimately determines how much traction one has with the road.
So here's the thing. I fully understand AWD offers limited benefits. It can assist you with your vector at low speeds while offering better acceleration, and helps you up hills. That is mostly it. It does not help at highway speeds and it sure does not help you slow down. I say this to agree that buying AWD for "confidence" alone is a fool's errand if you don't understand how and where it helps.
I
do expect an AWD car to use the front axle in winter though. It's just better for most drivers, even more experienced and confident ones
especially when regen is involved.
The non-ideal AWD in my Honda Crosstour vastly outperformed every other car I drove in winter. AWD does help, even if it's a heavy clumsy boat of a car (which the Crosstour certainly was).
I was in denial mode with the Model 3 for a while.
Really good snows help a ton. If you know how it works for (low speed) you just goose it and the front motor will kick in, instantly, not the best but it helps in some situations. In hindsight I might have given up the super quiet X-Ice snows for a slightly noisier slightly snow grippier Nokian R3.
Tesla really should add a snow mode. It technically seems like a no brainer. And maybe not just on 3. A "4WD mode" on all Tesla's 50-50 torque at all speeds (or what ever is best for slick conditions).
Not sure if it's already listed as feature a request, I'd vote or add it to the web site below. I'd try to be crystal clear on the issue and the feature request so it gets up voted. All AWD Model 3 owners in snow country should be concerned about this.
MoreTesla.com
Couple Tweets might help too. Needs to be really concise and clear.
Yes the Raven X is Front Wheel biased. Checked it today on Scan My Tesla.
I created the request here: MoreTesla.com
Please upvote if you agree! Please let me know if any edits should be made, I'm not a very concise writer. I couldn't find an existing similar feature request, thus the new one.
I wish I could be in denial mode, it would feel better!
Giving it the goose is how the Honda Crosstour kicked in the rear axle, so I'm actually familiar with the approach. However this happened at a
much lower threshold than the front motor of the Model 3. The Crosstour wouldn't need to have the tires spin on a slick surface before the rear was engaged.
+1 on the Hakkas over X-Ice though. I had both on the Crosstour. X-Ice was utterly useless in too many conditions and performed more like a performance winter tire than a true winter tire. It was however quieter than my all-seasons. But yes, traction over sound for winter!
I used to think that too.
It's not just "Weight over drive wheels". FWD even with 50-50 balance is so much easier to drive in snow for the average driver than RWD.
Basically based on the current behavior and your comment AWD buys you very little.
And for the record the Raven X initially is 60% biased in the front at take off. I'm not sure what the Model 3 is, but it feels like 0 (all rear all the time unless you goose it). Not sure what the Pre-Raven does. I think it might be 50% at start (equally efficient motors). And possibly 50% when cruising. I need to catch up on those (Scan My Tesla) threads.
Agreed. Weight on wheels certainly has some impact, but it's not everything. My smart car, for example. Most of the weight was on the rear axle and it was RWD, but it still had both oversteer and understeer tendencies. FWD simply provides more feedback (spinning results in understeer) and is much easier to correct (oversteer is extremely difficult to correct in comparison, especially safely and within a small footprint). I didn't mean to break out the FWD vs RWD opinions, but FWD is
definitely way more predictable regardless of which any particular person likes better.
Currently, I'd say AWD on a Model 3 only buys you performance. The front is used too weakly even when the rear is slipping, providing very little benefit. Model 3 feels like 0% front at take-off because it is unless you really give it the beans, which you shouldn't be doing in cautious winter driving.
If you have drive sport performance cars, and from your list it doesn't appear you have while delivering your pizzas, you wouldn't be complaining so much.
Model 3 correctly behaves like a RWD sports cars and it drives in the snow exactly like one. Where is the big surprise? I got my first experience a couple of nights ago. Very bad road conditions with many accidents and cars that were stuck left and right. Stand out was as Porsche Macan that didn't want to move uphill. We passed it and drove up without any issues.
I agree with you that some skills are required but that is what makes the Model 3 such an exciting car to drive in dry and slippery conditions alike.
Please Tesla don't change anything! Unless of course, you want to enter the pizza delivery market.
P.S. Gosh! sports cars don't drive like quads!!!!
P.S.S please go ahead and trade UP for a Volt
Piece
Hey I totally could've had the Brabus variant of the smart car... that makes it a sports car, right?!
Jokes aside, I see where you're coming from. In our defense, the Model 3 was bought as the most competent AWD EV we could get at a "reasonable" price. Tesla could cut the power in half and I wouldn't miss it too badly. Fact is, my AWD car is truthfully more like a RWD, which
is actually
unexpected.
I didn't buy the Performance Model 3, I bought the Long Range AWD Model 3. And I'm not alone in this -- many,
many people locally are buying an AWD Model 3 when their last vehicle was a Prius, some econobox, a truck, a crossover vehicle, etc., not a RWD sports car. And the Model 3 isn't a sports car. It's too heavy IMO for that classification (though yes, it goes pretty good in a straight line -- it does many things well). I like an exciting drive, but the behaviour of the AWD Model 3 in icy conditions right now could not be described as exciting (again, IMO).
Also, I said
Bolt, not
Volt... those are very different vehicles.
Oddly enough, lots of times hammering the throttle usually stabilizes the car if you're getting a bit of tail wag. The MXM4's are appalling in snowy/icy conditions compared to a dedicated snow. I have Hakka 9's now and its a lot better but still a bit more squirmy than the FWD Leaf with Hakka R2's. Just imagine you're Clarkson and hammer the throttle everywhere you go.
Oh heck no, this hasn't been my experience at all. The Hakka 9s are studded right? I have Hakka R3s, which aren't studded. If I gun it, it just swings out the rear even more. Sure the front motor finally engages, but it's definitely a more squirrelly dash than if I just let it slip a little normally. I'm sure studded helps in this regard and might be the difference. It certainly gets you there faster when you mash it since the front motor is engaged, but it's a bit... reckless? Which can be fun, but only if that's your goal.
I'm not saying Tesla needs to make all other tires feel like studded tires, in case someone is gleaning that somehow. I'm saying the TCS needs to work better and use the front motor more with cautious winter driving.
For the folks in snow country, do you see the traction control light blink when it feels like there isn’t enough traction? Annoyingly Bjorn didn’t include the screen in the feed so it is hard to know if the car was pulling power due to slipping or not.
I'm glad you asked. I'm partly convinced there's a threshold for this. I could swear it's engaging without flashing at times.
