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Discussion of statistical analysis of vehicle fires as it relates to Model S

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Interesting read, but I keep wondering about this very small sample of only 3 events. What are the odds that we will see similar events (large metal objects puncturing the battery) over the coming months and years, and at a frequency that resembles what we've seen this fall. Even the vehicle sample of 19,000 could be too small to be statistically relevant.

understanding the answer to your question requires a firm handle on statistics, and that's why your valid question has a complex answer.

the correct approach to analyzing this type of situation is to use the binomial distribution. here's how it works:

the binomial distribution has only two outcomes, the textbooks often call them success and failure. in my model, a car that has a collision fire in a year of operation is a "success" and a car that doesn't have a collision fire in a year of operation is a "failure".
to get binomial probabilities, you need three pieces of information:
1. p, which is the probability of seeing a successful outcome
2. n, which is the number of observations you are looking at, and
3. x which is the number of "success" outcomes encountered in the n observations.

first let's look at the "p"- the probability of seeing a collision related fire for one year of a typical car's operation. there are extensive statistics on millions of cars, hundreds of thousands of collisions, and tens of thousands of fire in the aggregate nfpa data set. so for me to say that there are 0.0000392 collision related fires per car-year (as i estimated in the kickoff post), i think it's very hard to argue that figure is very far off. there's simply too much data over too many years pointing to that estimate - the estimate is based on almost 130 million cars on the road! from a statistical standpoint what happens is that the estimated error is pretty close to sqrt(p*(1-p)/k) where k is the number of total vehicles for which i am estimating the p. the net result is that the .0000392 should be +/-10% of the actual answer for probability of a collision related fire in a year for an average automobile.

next, consider the "n". i know this is pretty darn accurate as well, as we know how many teslas were delivered and when, and we can pretty easily calculate "car-years" on the road. that's my 13,300. from the standpoint of a binomial distribution, 13,300 is a pretty large "n".

finally consider the "x". that's the 3 fires we observed in a tesla. we can be pretty darn sure that's accurate too (that is there's definitely not less than 3 fires because we have pictures and video of the car burning).

so what i am saying here is that we have a very good handle on the 3 inputs into the binomial distribution, the p, the n, and the x.

under these conditions, i can tell you pretty much *** exactly *** how likely it is that i will see 0 fires, 1 fire, 2 fires, 3 fires, etc.
just put in the following formula into an excel spreadsheet:
=binomdist(<<insert number of observed fires>>,13300,0.0000392,FALSE)

if you do this, you'll get these results (for various numbers of observed fires):
observed fires probability
0 0.5937
1 0.3095
2 0.0807
3 0.0140
4 0.0018
5 0.0002
now here's how you can interpret the data - you can ask, what is the probability i would see 0 fires in the teslas up until now?
the answer is 59.37%
how about exactly one fire by now?
the answer is 30.95%
how about one or fewer fires by now?
the answer is 0.5937+0.3095 = 90.33%

and the important question: what is the probability i would see less than 3 fires?
that's the sum of the 0+1+2 fire values: 0.5937+0.3095+0.0807 = 0.9839%

that is, if tesla model s were as likely to have a collision fire as an ice automobile, there's a 98.39% chance that we would have seen 2 or less fires by now. this is virtually a mathematical fact.

at this point, i am realizing i have an error in my original post which i will soon fix - i came up with a probability that was a bit too high as i used 3 or fewer fires (i should have used 2 or fewer). i will go back and fix it.

that's why this third fire was so important, when there were 2 fires you still had an 8% chance of seeing that many fires. but now with 3, the probability is dropping of sharply that this is just a random variation we're seeing (of course that's still possible, it's just that the odds are now under 2%).

i'm really not sure how else i can express this view more clearly. if it's still confusing perhaps someone else who knows can chime in.

the sample size is not 3 - it is 13,300. the number of observed outcomes is 3. assuming my model inputs are correct or very close, the binomial distibution should correctly account for all of the facts properly in calculating probabilities.

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luvb2b - as you've looked at the data, I'm curious if you've seen any data source which separates collisions (two cars running into each other for instance) from accidents involving vehicles hitting debris in the road.

I ask as the way I think about the 3 fires, 1 of the events was such an outlier that I have a hard time making much of anything from it. But the first and 3rd seem to have a similar causal factor - hitting debris in the road that punctures the bottom of the car, and leads to a fire. The difficulty is that if you define your Model S sample that precisely, can we also define an ICE sample with a similar causal factor - ICE car hits debris on road and catches fire?

If the data doesn't exist at that level of detail, then we're left to do what we can, with what we have.

i haven't seen such a detailed level of data in my research, so i did the best i could with what i had =)

however, you could say that no matter what the separation is, it would almost certainly be worse for tesla. that's because collisions presumably include multi-car crashes + hitting road debris. so the number of fires related to hitting road debris is surely less than the number i gave, and that would make model s look even worse. the probability of a road-debris collision fire would be even lower, and then the odds of us seeing 3 model s fires being a random fluke would be even closer to zero.
 
understanding the answer to your question requires a firm handle on statistics, and that's why your valid question has a complex answer.

the correct approach to analyzing this type of situation is to use the binomial distribution. here's how it works:

the binomial distribution has only two outcomes, the textbooks often call them success and failure. in my model, a car that has a collision fire in a year of operation is a "success" and a car that doesn't have a collision fire in a year of operation is a "failure".
to get binomial probabilities, you need three pieces of information:
1. p, which is the probability of seeing a successful outcome
2. n, which is the number of observations you are looking at, and
3. x which is the number of "success" outcomes encountered in the n observations.

first let's look at the "p"- the probability of seeing a collision related fire for one year of a typical car's operation. there are extensive statistics on millions of cars, hundreds of thousands of collisions, and tens of thousands of fire in the aggregate nfpa data set. so for me to say that there are 0.0000392 collision related fires per car-year (as i estimated in the kickoff post), i think it's very hard to argue that figure is very far off. there's simply too much data over too many years pointing to that estimate - the estimate is based on almost 130 million cars on the road! from a statistical standpoint what happens is that the estimated error is pretty close to sqrt(p*(1-p)/k) where k is the number of total vehicles for which i am estimating the p. the net result is that the .0000392 should be +/-10% of the actual answer for probability of a collision related fire in a year for an average automobile.

next, consider the "n". i know this is pretty darn accurate as well, as we know how many teslas were delivered and when, and we can pretty easily calculate "car-years" on the road. that's my 13,300. from the standpoint of a binomial distribution, 13,300 is a pretty large "n".

finally consider the "x". that's the 3 fires we observed in a tesla. we can be pretty darn sure that's accurate too (that is there's definitely not less than 3 fires because we have pictures and video of the car burning).

so what i am saying here is that we have a very good handle on the 3 inputs into the binomial distribution, the p, the n, and the x.

under these conditions, i can tell you pretty much *** exactly *** how likely it is that i will see 0 fires, 1 fire, 2 fires, 3 fires, etc.
just put in the following formula into an excel spreadsheet:
=binomdist(<<insert number of observed fires>>,13300,0.0000392,FALSE)

if you do this, you'll get these results (for various numbers of observed fires):
observed fires probability
0 0.5937
1 0.3095
2 0.0807
3 0.0140
4 0.0018
5 0.0002
now here's how you can interpret the data - you can ask, what is the probability i would see 0 fires in the teslas up until now?
the answer is 59.37%
how about exactly one fire by now?
the answer is 30.95%
how about one or fewer fires by now?
the answer is 0.5937+0.3095 = 90.33%

and the important question: what is the probability i would see less than 3 fires?
that's the sum of the 0+1+2 fire values: 0.5937+0.3095+0.0807 = 0.9839%

that is, if tesla model s were as likely to have a collision fire as an ice automobile, there's a 98.39% chance that we would have seen 2 or less fires by now. this is virtually a mathematical fact.

at this point, i am realizing i have an error in my original post which i will soon fix - i came up with a probability that was a bit too high as i used 3 or fewer fires (i should have used 2 or fewer). i will go back and fix it.

that's why this third fire was so important, when there were 2 fires you still had an 8% chance of seeing that many fires. but now with 3, the probability is dropping of sharply that this is just a random variation we're seeing (of course that's still possible, it's just that the odds are now under 2%).

i'm really not sure how else i can express this view more clearly. if it's still confusing perhaps someone else who knows can chime in.

the sample size is not 3 - it is 13,300. the number of observed outcomes is 3. assuming my model inputs are correct or very close, the binomial distibution should correctly account for all of the facts properly in calculating probabilities.

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i haven't seen such a detailed level of data in my research, so i did the best i could with what i had =)

@luvb,

With all respect, your predictions are baseless, because MS caught fire under specific circumstances. These circumstances were changed by the new firmware.

MS acted like a gigantic broom on the highways: it sat about 1 inch lower than the majority of cars. Now that they updated the firmware, you could also add to the list above that you would also need to be the 1st car on the road to hit that debris.
 
It may well be that road debris is categorized as mechanical failure, not a collision. After all isn't this the inference made by the investigation?

my understanding is that the categorization is by "direct cause". if you hit an object and it's the direct cause of a subsequent mechanical failure, it's classified a collision. but as i said before, this is a very important question to have answered correctly. and even though i think i got it, i can't be 100% sure unless i do something wild like calling the guy who does the studies.
 
Luvb2b, since you're discussing "truth and lies" using statistics that appear to be controvertible while the term truth is an incontrovertible fact and lie has implications of intent to maliciously mislead, I would suggest you edit your title to something like "Discussion of statistical analysis of vehicle fires as it relates to Model S" rather then a sensationalist and provoking title such as the one you used. The title brings innuendo immediately to the forefront and stirs emotion rather than clinical discourse that could lead to useful information.

Dave
 
I unfortunately can’t follow the math, but here is someone who appears to be able to. According to this post:

What do you do for work? Just passing time waiting for updates from Tesla :) - Page 36 (Post #355.)

…he is a senior researcher at CERN.

well i don't have his academic credentials, but my track record on analyzing these situations accurately from an investment perspective has stood the test of time.

what he's saying is somewhat correct, and i have addressed that issue properly by using the binomial distribution and not the normal distribution.

the ice fires can be modeled as a binomial distribution. a binomial distribution over time, taken to the limit is the poisson distribution. and a binomial distribution with large sample sizes is almost exactly a normal distribution.

the binomial distribution is what you use when you have a discrete number of observations and it produces accurate results if the inputs are valid. let mr. kadastik weigh in here and let's see what he says.

again, i want to refer people to this case study of the honda cr-v, where 60 fires in about 300,000 vehicles was enough to cause significant (and valid) alarm.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/12/business/12honda.html?_r=0
 
welcome back luvb2b!

Your reads are always good!! - Definitely learned a lot from you.

But overall, it's hard to compare these kind of incidents. Yes, they are both cars but not completely Apples to Apples. Too many different kind of variables. We can play the numbers out all we want, but it definitely doesn't paint a clear logical picture.

Would it help to factor in all the other collisions that have happened with other Model S's?

What are the chances of one running over a hitch/"debris" on the HWY at HWY Speeds? I know I've been able to avoid anything that's more than a few inches tall.

What are the odds that there has been two Model S collisions in TN, different drivers with the same (uncommon) last name who are both in the Medical Field? (Same Household?)

Freak Statistics- Weird that it happened in such a short time period but with so many unanswered questions it's hard to come to a conclusion.
Just glad no one died or got seriously injured.
 
Moderators: I know there is a way to mute comments posted by a "member", but is there a way to MUTE threads or comments that contain the word F*I*R*E!!!?
I have never in my life seen such overanalyzed drama!
Now I am heading to the beach for a week to get away from here! :) (I wish.)
 
Firstly, I don't think it's valid to make a comparison to of 3 accidents relative to 13k car-years versus much higher numbers of ICE car-years.

am i allowed to argue with a moderator? there is a very standard accepted statistical methodology for conducting this kind of analysis, which is comparison of means testing. i took a slight shortcut because the number of ice car-years is so high that it doesn't require the full rigor of comparison means testing. so i don't know why you feel it's not valid, there's entire chapters written on how to do it.

In order to make any sort of valid statistical comparison, one really needs to use comparable factors such as car weight and speed.

this is not what the nhtsa will do. they will look at the odds of whether or not what they're seeing is a fluke, realize that it's become highly unlikely to be a random occurrence, and then do a ton of digging to figure out what's going on. aggregate statistics don't go into these fine details unfortunately, that's what the investigation will do.

i've posted it a few times, but it's worth studying the honda cr-v case study from 2002-2004. 60 fires in about 300,000 vehicles, is almost the same as if you took tesla's numbers and multiplied by 20. it was enough to cause a major investigation and uncover a serious actual problem.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/12/business/12honda.html?_r=0

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I mostly agree with your post in that Elon has significantly exaggerated his statistics, however, there is still too little data on Model S fires to do any apples to apples comparisons. Three fires in a short period of time out of a sample set of 19,000 with an average lifetime of 6 months can't be compared to a hundred thousand plus fires out of several hundred million vehicles. It just doesn't work. The number of occurrences isn't statistically significant. In fact, it makes more sense that the Model S has an even lower fire rate and this was just a fluke because there were no fires for over a year and then several in rapid succession. It will take a few more years, or many more fires to say anything definitively.

i keep hearing this same argument. so i will issue a challenge.

the statistical analysis can be done. it's called comparison of means testing for two populations and there are entire chapters written on the methodologies.

maybe what all of you mean to say is, "i don't know how it's done". that's different than saying it can't be done to any meaning level of significance.

so if you are knowledgeable enough to know how to do this, then post how it is done properly and show the level of significance is not meaningful. that's my challenge.

for a start, you could google "comparison of means for two populations".

i agree most of the literature uses normal distributions for the hypothesis testing, and the normal distribution doesn't apply here to the tesla dataset. that's why i used the binomial distribution. it is the correct way to do this testing, until someone answers my challenge and shows otherwise....

perhaps mr kadastik can?
 
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... so for me to say that there are 0.0000392 collision related fires per car-year (as i estimated in the kickoff post), i think it's very hard to argue that figure is very far off.

finally consider the "x". that's the 3 fires we observed in a tesla. we can be pretty darn sure that's accurate too (that is there's definitely not less than 3 fires because we have pictures and video of the car burning).


at this point, i am realizing i have an error in my original post which i will soon fix - i came up with a probability that was a bit too high as i used 3 or fewer fires (i should have used 2 or fewer). i will go back and fix it.

that's why this third fire was so important, when there were 2 fires you still had an 8% chance of seeing that many fires. but now with 3, the probability is dropping of sharply that this is just a random variation we're seeing (of course that's still possible, it's just that the odds are now under 2%).


the sample size is not 3 - it is 13,300. the number of observed outcomes is 3. assuming my model inputs are correct or very close, the binomial distibution should correctly account for all of the facts properly in calculating probabilities.

the probability of a road-debris collision fire would be even lower, and then the odds of us seeing 3 model s fires being a random fluke would be even closer to zero.


couple of points related to above excerpts:
1) you seem very certain that 'Collision' fires include all road debris causes. Why are you so certain of this?
2) even if in Collision category, we only have 2 fires, not 3 (and in you're words, the 3rd fire was the important one)- (Fire2 should be classified as intentional - I see your post above you are correcting to 2 fires)
3) 13,300 (car years) for N is not 'pretty large', it's minimal, and characterized by your construct - produces a 31% chance of seeing the first fire
4) Now that the car is proven that ModS Fire is not congruent with ICE fire in terms of A) human safety (statistically valid assumption clearly) B) Explosive character and danger to others and C) damage $s as now insured by Tesla, why do fires even have the same meaning to a TSLA (potential)owner
 
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But overall, it's hard to compare these kind of incidents. Yes, they are both cars but not completely Apples to Apples. Too many different kind of variables. We can play the numbers out all we want, but it definitely doesn't paint a clear logical picture.

but it's not hard to answer the question "how likely is it that we would have seen 3 tesla collision related fires by now if the model s was as safe as an ice from a collision-fire standpoint?"

that's the question i have addressed, and the answer to me is quite clear.

Would it help to factor in all the other collisions that have happened with other Model S's?

no, because i am focusing on just collision fires and whether they are anomalous from a statistical standpoint.

Just glad no one died or got seriously injured.

amen to that!

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Luvb2b, since you're discussing "truth and lies" using statistics that appear to be controvertible while the term truth is an incontrovertible fact and lie has implications of intent to maliciously mislead, I would suggest you edit your title to something like "Discussion of statistical analysis of vehicle fires as it relates to Model S" rather then a sensationalist and provoking title such as the one you used. The title brings innuendo immediately to the forefront and stirs emotion rather than clinical discourse that could lead to useful information.

Dave

sounds good to me!
 
i've posted it a few times, but it's worth studying the honda cr-v case study from 2002-2004. 60 fires in about 300,000 vehicles, is almost the same as if you took tesla's numbers and multiplied by 20. it was enough to cause a major investigation and uncover a serious actual problem.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/12/business/12honda.html?_r=0

This Honda situation was apparently spontaneous combustion. If you have not yet read, the Tesla fires are caused by high energy impacts with unusually shaped ultra-hard metal (trailer hitch, etc), which create significant force in a small area. If you haven't read, people have died from such impacts in ICE, and have had cabin penetration in ICE cars.

So I'm not seeing what Honda 2002 has to do with Tesla in 2013 other than to show Tesla doesn't have a spontaneous fire problem.
 
couple of points related to above excerpts:
1) you seem very certain that 'Collision' fires include all road debris causes. Why are you so certain of this?
2) even if in Collision category, we only have 2 fires, not 3 (and in you're words, the 3rd fire was the important one)- (Fire2 should be classified as intentional - I see your post above you are correcting to 2 fires)
3) 13,300 (car years) for N is not 'pretty large', it's minimal, and characterized by your construct - produces a 31% chance of seeing the first fire
4) Now that the car is proven that ModS Fire is not congruent with ICE fire in terms of A) human safety (statistically valid assumption clearly) B) Explosive character and danger to others and C) damage $s as now insured by Tesla, why do fires even have the same meaning to a TSLA (potential)owner

1. yes, i am confident. not confident enough to be short, but confident enough to stay on the sidelines. i guess the main reason is this description on page 6 of this document: http://www.nfpa.org/~/media/Files/Research/NFPA reports/Vehicles/osautomobilefires.pdf

What are the leading causes of automobile fires?
Some type of a mechanical failure or malfunction was a factor on almost half (45%) of automobile
fires and 11% of the associated deaths. Mechanical failures may be due to leaks or breaks, worn out
parts, backfires, or similar issues. Electrical failures or malfunctions were factors in one-quarter
(24%) of the fires, but only 1% of the deaths.

you can see mechanical failures defined as basically something faulty on the vehicle, not the vehicle striking something.

2. intentional fires mean a fire where someone actually "set" the car on fire, this is the case of arson. a drunk driver crashing his car at high speed is not intentional. Here's the quote from the same page of the document above.

Ten percent of automobile fires were intentional; these incidents caused 11% of the deaths.
Intentional fires are excluded from the remainder of the analysis of causal factors. Because the
NFIRS field “cause of ignition,” includes unintentional, equipment or heat source failure, and act of
nature as separate code choices, the term “non-intentional” will be used to describe all fires that were
not intentionally set
.

3. 13,300 car years being large or small is irrelevant. the binomial distribution properly incorporates this value of n in calculating probabilities. you could have 1,000 car years and 1 fire and the binomial distribution will tell you how likely you are to observe that for a given "p". it's so hard to explain this to someone who doesn't have a firm grasp of how it works.

here's another example. let's say you're interested in rolling all 1s on six fair dice. the odds of a single 1 is 1 in 6. the odds of doing 6 ones is (1/6)^6 = .00002143. that's the "p" and notice it is very close to the .0000392 probability of a collision fire.

now if you ask me the question in 1000 attempts at rolling six 1s on six fair dice, how likely is it that i will do it once? twice? three times? i can answer all of those questions *** precisely ***.

would you tell me in this case that 1000 attempts is not enough to answer the question? or that just doing it once or twice is too few times for me to answer the question? of course not. because you know that the probabilities can be exactly computed.

now understand that the only variable here is the "p", because the 13,300 car-years and the 3 fires are pretty much known exactly. we could debate the p being too high or too low, and you can adjust it yourself and run it through the binomial distribution using the excel formula i provided before. i say the "p" being based on millions of car-years is going to be very, very accurate.

4. as a model s owner, i'm only worried about a fire if i am in a collision. as an investor, i take the view that this is something the nhtsa will justifiably probe, in my view evidence is that something is likely is amiss, and sometime down the road it will require a fix. it may be the stock price has properly discounted all of that happening already, or perhaps not yet. am i freaking out about this because i own a model s? no.

i did all this research trying to decide whether or not to wade back into tesla, or whether or not to short tesla. since i've decided to do neither (aside from a intraday-trading position), i figured i might as well share it because it seems like many people don't quite understand how these numbers work.
 
3. 13,300 car years being large or small is irrelevant. the binomial distribution properly incorporates this value of n in calculating probabilities. you could have 1,000 car years and 1 fire and the binomial distribution will tell you how likely you are to observe that for a given "p". it's so hard to explain this to someone who doesn't have a firm grasp of how it works.

here's another example. let's say you're interested in rolling all 1s on six fair dice. the odds of a single 1 is 1 in 6. the odds of doing 6 ones is (1/6)^6 = .00002143. that's the "p" and notice it is very close to the .0000392 probability of a collision fire.

now if you ask me the question in 1000 attempts at rolling six 1s on six fair dice, how likely is it that i will do it once? twice? three times? i can answer all of those questions *** precisely ***.

would you tell me in this case that 1000 attempts is not enough to answer the question? or that just doing it once or twice is too few times for me to answer the question? of course not. because you know that the probabilities can be exactly computed.

now understand that the only variable here is the "p", because the 13,300 car-years and the 3 fires are pretty much known exactly. we could debate the p being too high or too low, and you can adjust it yourself and run it through the binomial distribution using the excel formula i provided before. i say the "p" being based on millions of car-years is going to be very, very accurate.

I'm going to have to disagree, and I can't let this pass, as you seem to be building a short case, and you want people to think your thoughts are valid thoughts (they are not, for many reasons).

You are attempting to teach statistics using probability. We know the probability of rolling dice combinations a priori. We do not know the likelihood of a running over a trailer hitch such that it causes a fire in a Model S. The n of your number of occurrences will become large enough around 10. So your attempt to use probability, and all of your calculations are flawed.
 
Re Fire #2: So I have to ask ... where's the analysis of 'how many people survive after driving an ICE car into a concrete wall at 30/40/50/60 mph'?? Shouldn't there also be an analysis of that? The fact that the car burned is immaterial. I believe (but I haven't looked at the stats) that most other cars would not have protected the occupants.

Can someone start an analysis of survivability of that type of situation? It wasn't road debris. It was a concrete wall and speed. But I'd really like to understand how the Model S did vs. ICE in that situation.

Who here is up to running THAT analysis?
 
TL;DR. Anyone care to "nutshell" the OP?

Tl;dr:

luv2b has concluded that Elon's claims that the Model S has less chance of fires than a gasoline car, in general, are exaggerated but in conclusion still correct.

He has also used the binomial model to determine whether a Model S currently has a higher chance of catching fire after a collision than a gasoline car, and the statistics very firmly indicate that this is in fact the case. This analysis looks sound to me, with the caveat that I only know basic college-level statistics. I haven't controlled the calculations, but I assume that luv2b can operate a calculator with precision.

The latter of these conclusions is only valid before the current firmware update. We are partially resetting the count after this update. If we have two additional fires in the next 6-12 months, it's pretty likely that the Model S is still more likely to catch fire in a collision than your average gasoline car.

End tl;dr

I see very much emotion and very little logic in the responses to this thread. But as far as I can tell, luv2bs conclusions are correct. They are probably less scary than what the market at large has already priced in. And I have no thoughts about any long-term consquences of these facts. Hopefully it's limited to a small issue with public perception. I think this is the biggest risk factor.
 
There's a couple of things here. First it's been established that Elon is not off by much (25%) with his 5x claim (as you get 4x in the end with all the analysis with leaving out intentional fires and normalizing by "car-years").

Next, for the whole collision related fires/car-year statistic there are some very big caveats (which I mentioned in previous threads that discussed this, as brought up by dm33).

First of all is the definition of "collision" used. Only the Mexico incident would that clearly fit most common sense definitions of collision (ignoring for the moment the extra dependencies caused by it happening in Mexico instead of the US). It's unclear if the two debris hits would be categorized under collision.

The second is that the clearly missing number is the probability of collision in a Model S and how it compares to "average" vehicles. To be even more specific, how likely it is to run over road debris (i know of 4 reported incidents so far but there may be other unreported ones too). If you have either of these numbers then you can say with some certainty that the Model S is more prone to fire from collision, but without it, you are making a big assumption. And it's not necessarily a good assumption that the Model S has the same probability for collisions (esp. given the ground clearance differences discussed at length elsewhere).
 
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