Discussion: "Powerwall +"

[wwhitney]

Personally, I'll be

Going on assumptions, I assume the top box is only the solar PPT buck converter to go from 4 strings to the internal DC bus and the bottom PW is basically the same as any post November unit.

I gather that is one possible design of the PW+ described in the spec sheet at the beginning of the thread. But there have also been hearsay statements to the effect the solar and ESS are still AC coupled in the PW+, which would be a different design.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[h2ofun]

I agree that the PW+, based on the spec sheet, appears to refer to the new integrated gateway / inverter and Powerwall unit.

However, I think some of people's confusion about the "plus" referring instead to a higher peak power capability (and not the new integrated unit) comes from Elon's comment on the earnings call, in which he said that "the plus refers to a higher peak power capability." He called it a "Powerwall 2 Plus" on that call, which is obviously a little different from the spec sheet, and he also implied that many people already owned these units.

So, some existing PW2 owners (those who suspect their units were manufactured after November; I'm still trying to figure out whether mine, which were installed the third week of November, qualify) are expecting an update that will increase their PW's peak power capability.

So far I have found nothing that says another about a November date. He could have misspoken, and was talking about the factory adding the new Powerwall plus product, which would make more sense. We just have to wait, but so far, I see nothing that saw any wiring or breakers need to change in the field. And I called and was told mine installed in March were build in Jan 30th. But who cares, I cannot hear of anything being different starting Nov. Do you have something other than Elon's tweak? We all can misspeak at times.

 

[sunbear]

So, some existing PW2 owners (those who suspect their units were manufactured after November; I'm still trying to figure out whether mine, which were installed the third week of November, qualify) are expecting an update that will increase their PW's peak power capability.

Yes, exactly. The original Powerwall 2 Spec sheet quotes Apparent Power, peak (10s, of-grid/backup) = 7.2 kVA
7200/240 = 30 Amps (so 30A breaker makes sense)

But how many amps would a Powerwall 2 Plus produce at peak?
7200*1.5/240 = 45 Amps

 

[h2ofun]

Yes, exactly. The original Powerwall 2 Spec sheet quotes Apparent Power, peak (10s, of-grid/backup) = 7.2 kVA
7200/240 = 30 Amps (so 30A breaker makes sense)

But how many amps would a Powerwall 2 Plus produce at peak?
7200*1.5/240 = 45 Amps

It is just a guess. The only data point I have is I called Tesla Powerwall support, she talked to her manager and said no changes are needed for the new FW. I did not get a direct answer to what the new fw will do. Give tesla powerwall support a call and see what you get to your questions

 

[sunbear]

Do you have something other than Elon's tweak? We all can misspeak at times.

It was not a tweet, it was the Q1 2021 Tesla Financial Results conference call with investors.

 

[willow_hiller]

Also, just to add some interesting detail on the future of the stand-alone Tesla inverter...

Someone on Reddit just posted that their solar panel system installed today came with a SolarEdge inverter. I was under the impression that Tesla had fully phased out third-party inverters. Maybe they've fully shifted over to manufacturing Powerwall+ with the Tesla Inverter power electronics, and are using third-party to fill the gap until they sort out all the PW+ logistics?

 

[scubastevo80]

Also, just to add some interesting detail on the future of the stand-alone Tesla inverter...

Someone on Reddit just posted that their solar panel system installed today came with a SolarEdge inverter. I was under the impression that Tesla had fully phased out third-party inverters. Maybe they've fully shifted over to manufacturing Powerwall+ with the Tesla Inverter power electronics, and are using third-party to fill the gap until they sort out all the PW+ logistics?

My system was installed about a week and a half ago and I have SolarEdge inverters (2 for a 12.2KW system). Everything working great so far.

 

[h2ofun]

It was not a tweet, it was the Q1 2021 Tesla Financial Results conference call with investors.

either way, folks can misspeak

 

[oholladay]

My system was installed about a week and a half ago and I have SolarEdge inverters (2 for a 12.2KW system). Everything working great so far.

Interesting. Do you have a lot of shading that may affect your panels? Given that the Tesla inverter (including the Powerwall+) only has MPPT per string (up to 4), I was wondering if they were still using the DC optimizers that are available with the SolarEdge inverters for those that would benefit from a per panel MPPT.

 

[oholladay]

So far I have found nothing that says another about a November date. He could have misspoken, and was talking about the factory adding the new Powerwall plus product, which would make more sense. We just have to wait, but so far, I see nothing that saw any wiring or breakers need to change in the field. And I called and was told mine installed in March were build in Jan 30th. But who cares, I cannot hear of anything being different starting Nov. Do you have something other than Elon's tweak? We all can misspeak at times.

I must admit that not all of the pieces are coming together for me as to what I can expect. However, when I put the statements made by Elon in the Q1 2021 earnings call (transcript here), in which he stated that "all Powerwalls made since roughly November of last year have a lot more peak power capability than the specification on the website" together with his April 22 tweets, in which he stated, in part that, "Tesla can unlock higher capabilities for free via software update next month. Depending on production date, power increase power may be >50% at 30C ambient temp.", I get the impression that many current Powerwall owners that recently had theirs installed will get some sort of increased capability via software update. However, as sunbear was suggesting, it is unclear how this will work if people's installation (e.g., wiring and breaker size) is not compatible with the higher output.

 

[Oceanwolf]

My spec sheet was just updated today for my install in mid May. It’s just the standard PW spec sheet, no mention of ‘+’. I will definitely be enquiring.

I have a May 12th installation, I didn't see any changes at all on my spec sheet. No communication either other than what it says on my page.

 

[h2ofun]

I must admit that not all of the pieces are coming together for me as to what I can expect. However, when I put the statements made by Elon in the Q1 2021 earnings call (transcript here), in which he stated that "all Powerwalls made since roughly November of last year have a lot more peak power capability than the specification on the website" together with his April 22 tweets, in which he stated, in part that, "Tesla can unlock higher capabilities for free via software update next month. Depending on production date, power increase power may be >50% at 30C ambient temp.", I get the impression that many current Powerwall owners that recently had theirs installed will get some sort of increased capability via software update. However, as sunbear was suggesting, it is unclear how this will work if people's installation (e.g., wiring and breaker size) is not compatible with the higher output.

Call tesla powerwall support. Why not go to the source for the best fact info possible! I am hearing and seeing NOTHING that show ANY concern about wiring or breaker size. Support told this to me directly. But, time will tell! And NOTHING supports the November comment anything has changed in the PW that I can find, even a rumor, nothing

 

[scubastevo80]

Interesting. Do you have a lot of shading that may affect your panels? Given that the Tesla inverter (including the Powerwall+) only has MPPT per string (up to 4), I was wondering if they were still using the DC optimizers that are available with the SolarEdge inverters for those that would benefit from a per panel MPPT.

Next to no shading and southern facing front roof where most of the panels are (only 3 panels on back/north side). I don’t have much data but my best generation day so far was 67kw.

 

[Mark_T]

I was under the impression that Tesla had fully phased out third-party inverters. Maybe they've fully shifted over to manufacturing Powerwall+ with the Tesla Inverter power electronics, and are using third-party to fill the gap until they sort out all the PW+ logistics?

Keep in mind that the US market is the only one where Tesla currently sell their own inverter, so whatever changes they make to the Powerwall+ the odds are it is still going to be installable with other inverters, and even in the USA, they will not be using the new Powerwall+/inverter configuration in Massachusetts, New York, and Rhode Island any time soon due to the National Grid solar metering requirements there...

 

[mongo]

Keep in mind that the US market is the only one where Tesla currently sell their own inverter, so whatever changes they make to the Powerwall+ the odds are it is still going to be installable with other inverters, and even in the USA, they will not be using the new Powerwall+/inverter configuration in Massachusetts, New York, and Rhode Island any time soon due to the National Grid solar metering requirements there...

Do the National Grid solar metering requirements apply if the system has revenue grade current sensing and the software does not allow it to export power?

 

[Mark_T]

My understanding is that 'revenue grade' is not the same as 'certified & approved'

Not sure that a zero export option would be all that popular, this isn't just stopping the Powerwall+ from exporting to the grid, this would require no solar export at all with the new configuration.

 

[daveh85]

+1 to @Mark_T.

National Grid / Ever Grid moves at snail pace. I would hedge a bet this will take 6+ months before being approved.

 

[CrazyRabbit]

did anyone else notice the utility disconnect is in meter base? with inverter/powerwall backfeeding panel.
i wonder if they will be making auto load shedding breakers?
there is also no way of integrating soft start into the powerwall+, it definitly needs to be on the individual circuit as well.
one thing tesla could do is separate out starting events, start outdoor unit first then air handler. would require battery powered thermostat (if shutting off air handler).

 

[mongo]

My understanding is that 'revenue grade' is not the same as 'certified & approved'

Not sure that a zero export option would be all that popular, this isn't just stopping the Powerwall+ from exporting to the grid, this would require no solar export at all with the new configuration.

Non-export, while not as flexiable as net metering, is still advantageous (esp in areas without net metering).
Day -> house loads + recharge PW + EV charging (if parked) as load dump
Night -> PW runs the house until drained
Unless the solar output is greater than that the day loads and PW capacity, it maxes out the benefits.

 

[wjgjr]

Non-export, while not as flexiable as net metering, is still advantageous (esp in areas without net metering).
Day -> house loads + recharge PW + EV charging (if parked) as load dump
Night -> PW runs the house until drained
Unless the solar output is greater than that the day loads and PW capacity, it maxes out the benefits.

While I definitely see the advantage with no net metering, it seems like most people do have some form of net metering. Even if it is not full, it does provide a decent benefit. But the bigger issue is looking at the seasonality. When people talk about offsetting 100% of their usage, in most cases this means overproducing over the course of several months of the year and underproducing for several others. So, in order to have a system that maxes out the benefits as you describe it, you would generally need an undersized (< 100% usage) system.