Distraught by rapid loss of maximum battery storage

[Sharolyn]

I just got my new Model X on June 21st and I am very happy with it with the exception of the rapid loss of maximum battery storage, and the unsatisfactory response from the service department.

When I picked up the vehicle, and for the first week, the maximum charge was 344 km, and not the official 347 km. Within a week it dropped to 343, then 342, and now the maximum charge is 334 km on August 21st. That is a reduction of 13 km in 2 months of new driving, which seems unacceptable to me.

I've contacted the service department twice, and both times was told that the maximum charge depends on my driving style, but this answer does not explain the lower than standard starting charge number, which is correctly set at the non-trip maximum. I thought all vehicles would have their batteries checked so that the battery level starts at optimum from the factory.

The reason why I am distraught is if the battery is defective from the outset, what will it be like after a year with the expected gradual deterioration of the battery over time? Although no issues have shown up on the vehicle's report to the service department, isn't this a warranty issue if the battery is defective from the outset?

Any suggestions?

 

[Tam]

...isn't this a warranty issue if the battery is defective from the outset?

No.

Unlike Model 3 that has a warranty with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity, Model S and X do not have such a guarantee.

Without such a guarantee, theoretically, your capacity could go down to 150 km or worse and Tesla is not obligated to fix it.

However, Tesla is obligated to fix your battery for defectiveness (not just for less range).

You use range as a factor to determine defectiveness but that contradicts with what the warranty says:

"Note that the vehicle’s range estimates are an imperfect measure of Battery capacity because they are affected by additional factors separate from Battery capacity. The measurement method used to determine Battery capacity, and the decision of whether to repair, replace, or provide reconditioned or remanufactured parts, and the condition of any such replaced, reconditioned or re-manufactured parts, are at the sole discretion of Tesla."

To me, a defective battery is one that can no longer hold a charge. You can get third party tools to measure your battery modules and see whether there's any cell that fail to hold a charge then that needs to be swapped out.

If your battery can still hold a charge, even less than Model 3's guarantee of 70%, that is not defective if all the cells/modules still can hold a charge.

Back to your battery, it is fine despite range reduction. Just enjoy your car and don't be obsessive about the fact "that the vehicle’s range estimates are an imperfect measure".

 

[kqnjml]

I just posted the exact issue with my new Model X. Service advisor gave me the exact answer. Sorry, I don’t buy it. It’s all about the range game and marketing. I will continue to schedule service to bring up this issue until they come up with a software update to address the depleted range. It’s not about a defective battery, it’s about false advertising.

 

[Pale_Rider]

Forget what the range says, I have tried driving it to near zero at a reasonable speed to see exactly how many miles you can get? If you don't want to do that you can monitor your Wh/mi. The 100kwh battery has around 98kwh of useable battery. Drive on the interstate for 50 or 100 miles or so at 65/70mph and take your wh/mi and divide it by 98000. Hard to say its false advertising if you have not determined how many miles you will actually get in an optimal situation. Its no different than an ICE car, you only get the best case miles per gallon if you drive it the way they test it.

 

[posity]

As a new owner, you need to warm up to the idea that range of an EV, and that means ANY EV, is an ESTIMATE. There is nothing absolutely accurate about that range estimate: it is there to give you an idea how far you MIGHT be able to drive under some kind of theoretical average situation. As you drive it more, you'll begin to start understanding how the amount of uphill/downhill, weather, wind, etc change the actual range from the estimate. The estimate does not mean your battery has degraded: it just means the estimating algorithm is adjusting the ESTIMATE based on a whole slew of factors that we are not privy to. So don't worry that your battery is defective. You'll find that when you make a long trip (charge to 100%, discharge to around 15%), that the estimate of your maximum range will re-adjust based on your battery characteristics: if you see a large drop after a 100% to 15% trip, then I would consider that new estimate to be a more accurate reflection of your new maximum range. It is very common for your estimated range to slowly drop, but then when you make a long trip and the estimating algorithm can then more accurately recalibrate, your range comes back for awhile. Until you do a long trip, the estimating algorithm is far from perfect so you simply cannot draw the conclusion that your battery has degraded.

Executive summary: that range is an estimate. What you describe is very common, but not a problem. Enjoy your Tesla and welcome to the world of EVs.

 

[forkee]

my MXP90DL range from 100% fully charged (as indicated from the main screen)

Ideal
280 miles
*You can get this range if you are coasting downhill

Rated
226 miles
*you can get this range if you drive the speed limit like a responsible driver

Actual
100 miles
*you will get this range if you don't

i also brought up the large deviation of range to SC, they didn't give two $h!ts. They will only look into it if the car will not charge to 100%, not any measurement of distance.

 

[jeffro01]

I just posted the exact issue with my new Model X. Service advisor gave me the exact answer. Sorry, I don’t buy it. It’s all about the range game and marketing. I will continue to schedule service to bring up this issue until they come up with a software update to address the depleted range. It’s not about a defective battery, it’s about false advertising.

You can not buy it all you want but batteries degrade, and the initial degradation is usually pretty abrupt and pretty soon after you take it home. Then once you get past the initial slight drop the degradation should level off and become very gradual. This is how EVs work, perhaps you should have done some research...

Also, stop whining about false advertising... The ONLY time you have any chance of getting the "advertised" range is if you drive 55 on a perfectly flat plane with perhaps a slight tailwind at 80 degrees...

Jeff

 

[kqnjml]

Jeff,

I’m not whining and not the only one on this forum who’s concerned about the battery. History will speaks for itself so I won’t waste my time arguing with people like you. I have a model S and on my 2nd model X so I am aware of how EV works.

You can not buy it all you want but batteries degrade, and the initial degradation is usually pretty abrupt and pretty soon after you take it home. Then once you get past the initial slight drop the degradation should level off and become very gradual. This is how EVs work, perhaps you should have done some research...

Also, stop whining about false advertising... The ONLY time you have any chance of getting the "advertised" range is if you drive 55 on a perfectly flat plane with perhaps a slight tailwind at 80 degrees...

Jeff

 

[kqnjml]

I think it’s a good idea you brought it up to them even if they don’t do S..t about it. At least it’s in their log. Should this battery issue becomes a class action lawsuit, like the earlier models then you’ll have a case after warranty is out. I love Tesla and own 2 of them but the price and range game is annoying.

my MXP90DL range from 100% fully charged (as indicated from the main screen)

Ideal
280 miles
*You can get this range if you are coasting downhill

Rated
226 miles
*you can get this range if you drive the speed limit like a responsible driver

Actual
100 miles
*you will get this range if you don't


View attachment 445470
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View attachment 445469

i also brought up the large deviation of range to SC, they didn't give two $h!ts. They will only look into it if the car will not charge to 100%, not any measurement of distance.

 

[VT_EE]

My Model 3 reports estimated max range that varies by as much as 8 miles at 100% charge. At one point I was down to 316. Now I’m back up to 321. My point is a 10km fluctuation means nothing. Don’t worry about it unless you have lost 8-10% or the battery becomes unreliable. Then you should take it to a S.C. Enjoy the X!

 

[kqnjml]

That’s encouraging to know it does go back up

 

[Silicon Desert]

As a new owner, you need to warm up to the idea that range of an EV, and that means ANY EV, is an ESTIMATE. There is nothing absolutely accurate about that range estimate: it is there to give you an idea how far you MIGHT be able to drive under some kind of theoretical average situation. As you drive it more, you'll begin to start understanding how the amount of uphill/downhill, weather, wind, etc change the actual range from the estimate. The estimate does not mean your battery has degraded: it just means the estimating algorithm is adjusting the ESTIMATE based on a whole slew of factors that we are not privy to. So don't worry that your battery is defective.

Executive summary: that range is an estimate. What you describe is very common, but not a problem. Enjoy your Tesla and welcome to the world of EVs.

Amen. While I acknowledge that batteries degrade a bit over time, too many people worry over low percentage changes in the beginning. The op indicates about a 3% difference in the beginning. As you say, battery calculations just aren't that accurate, and there are several variables that affect it. Frankly, I am surprised they are as accurate as they currently are.

 

[Lindamon]

The way I understand it, projected available mileage figures change based on many factors, including driving habits, battery temperature, terrain, winds, etc. It’s based on the environmental factors and previous drives you’ve made, not just the charge available in your battery.

If your battery has really degraded, it wont charge to 100%. Change your readout to percent, and see if it charges to 100%. If it has degraded, it will only charge to a lower number. That’s the only way to tell, besides taking it to the shop, if your battery has degraded (again, as I understand it.)

Be aware if you do this, you need to drive it immediately, it’s hard on the battery to keep it at 100%. Also, you will have no regenerative braking until you hit around 94-95% from what I have read.

 

[SpiceWare]

Also, stop whining about false advertising... The ONLY time you have any chance of getting the "advertised" range is if you drive 55 on a perfectly flat plane with perhaps a slight tailwind at 80 degrees...

Recently took a road trip to Wisconsin in my 3. On the way back* I had to do a full charge to make it from Miner, Missouri to Little Rock, Arkansas:

Initially the car told me to stay below 70 so I stayed in the slow lane. After 15 minutes that limit increased to 75, then soon after went away.

So I set the speed to 75 mph and used whichever lane was appropriate.

We made it to Little Rock with 270.6 miles under our belt and 15% battery remaining.

85% of 312 = 265, so our range was better than expected. Took 4:14 to get there, for an average speed of 64 mph. That was less that I expected, but was due to heavy traffic on I-40. It also ignores the time we spent at the Forest City rest area off I-40.


* route up was different, thru Kansas, because we were first attending a wedding on the west side of Wisconsin. After the wedding we went to central Wisconsin to spend the week at my brother's.

 

[T3slaOwner]

The way I understand it, projected available mileage figures change based on many factors, including driving habits, battery temperature, terrain, winds, etc. It’s based on the environmental factors and previous drives you’ve made, not just the charge available in your battery.

If your battery has really degraded, it wont charge to 100%. Change your readout to percent, and see if it charges to 100%. If it has degraded, it will only charge to a lower number. That’s the only way to tell, besides taking it to the shop, if your battery has degraded (again, as I understand it.)

Be aware if you do this, you need to drive it immediately, it’s hard on the battery to keep it at 100%. Also, you will have no regenerative braking until you hit around 94-95% from what I have read.

I don't follow your reasoning. A battery will always charge to 100%. If you can't charge to 100% it is an issue with the battery management system. The problem is that as the battery ages the number of kWh the battery will hold at 100% is less. My battery has lost some 4-5% last time I checked. I can verify this by comparing the percentage increase and comparing that to the kWh added to the battery. Neither of those numbers are munged by anything else, so this is the only reliable indicator of battery capacity I know of.

However, be aware that the battery is one component on the car that will visibly wear with use. It is also sensitive to manner of use in undocumented ways. So while it is the most important part of the car, it is also the most fussy part. Gas engines wear pretty predictably and very few people ever have significant problems with them until they are well worn out. The Tesla battery will continue to visibly degrade until your range decreases very noticeably making longer trips difficult and time consuming.

 

[Lindamon]

I don't follow your reasoning. A battery will always charge to 100%. If you can't charge to 100% it is an issue with the battery management system. The problem is that as the battery ages the number of kWh the battery will hold at 100% is less. My battery has lost some 4-5% last time I checked. I can verify this by comparing the percentage increase and comparing that to the kWh added to the battery. Neither of those numbers are munged by anything else, so this is the only reliable indicator of battery capacity I know of.

However, be aware that the battery is one component on the car that will visibly wear with use. It is also sensitive to manner of use in undocumented ways. So while it is the most important part of the car, it is also the most fussy part. Gas engines wear pretty predictably and very few people ever have significant problems with them until they are well worn out. The Tesla battery will continue to visibly degrade until your range decreases very noticeably making longer trips difficult and time consuming.

Got it. I wasn’t entirely sure if the battery would show it wasn’t charging to the full 100kWh or not. I am not sure how the car (or any battery run item like my phone) measures the battery level. I assumed it could measure the amount of kWh available. My reasoning on it is, if the car has been programmed to know that it has a 100kWh battery, but it only measures 95 kWh in the battery, then it would show 95% full, and would be unable to go above that number if the battery was degraded. Make sense? But I am entirely ignorant on how the level of the battery is determined, so I stand corrected. Thanks!

 

[Krazaak]

The way I understand it, projected available mileage figures change based on many factors, including driving habits, battery temperature, terrain, winds, etc. It’s based on the environmental factors and previous drives you’ve made, not just the charge available in your battery.

If your battery has really degraded, it wont charge to 100%. Change your readout to percent, and see if it charges to 100%. If it has degraded, it will only charge to a lower number. That’s the only way to tell, besides taking it to the shop, if your battery has degraded (again, as I understand it.)

Be aware if you do this, you need to drive it immediately, it’s hard on the battery to keep it at 100%. Also, you will have no regenerative braking until you hit around 94-95% from what I have read.

With the exception of the warning about charging to 100% and the regenerative breaking being limited, the rest is wrong.

Rated range is based on the EPA rated efficiency for the vehicle and does not changed based on past driving or environmental factors.

A degraded battery still charges to 100%, it just contains less total energy and will drain faster. People telling you to switch to percentage charge so you won't be worried about your changing rated max are essentially telling you to stop worrying about it, not giving you a better method to understand it.

That said, worrying about small fluctuations in your max rated range isn't worth your time. Battery charge and capacity are estimates and the BMS is always fine tuning those values. A few km variation in rated range is normal, especially if you don't check the rated range right when it finishes charging. It can lose a couple km sitting overnight.

There's no degradation warranty on the Model S and X and it's 70% on the Model 3. You're not going to get Tesla's attention to check the battery health every time it loses a km of range. Charge the battery to 90% so it balances properly, don't charge it to 100% unless you need it and you're going to drive it right away. If you have wild swings in rated range, that might indicate a problem.

 

[jeffro01]

Jeff,

I’m not whining and not the only one on this forum who’s concerned about the battery. History will speaks for itself so I won’t waste my time arguing with people like you. I have a model S and on my 2nd model X so I am aware of how EV works.

Not possible... Otherwise you wouldn't be so concerned about advertising... Come on...

Jeff

 

[kqnjml]

There seem to be a ton of folks talking about the same issue on S&3 forum. It must be a software update that’s causing the issue. I’m looking for a solution not whining about anything so you can leave it be.

Not possible... Otherwise you wouldn't be so concerned about advertising... Come on...

Jeff

 

[T3slaOwner]

Got it. I wasn’t entirely sure if the battery would show it wasn’t charging to the full 100kWh or not. I am not sure how the car (or any battery run item like my phone) measures the battery level. I assumed it could measure the amount of kWh available. My reasoning on it is, if the car has been programmed to know that it has a 100kWh battery, but it only measures 95 kWh in the battery, then it would show 95% full, and would be unable to go above that number if the battery was degraded. Make sense? But I am entirely ignorant on how the level of the battery is determined, so I stand corrected. Thanks!

I just know that is not the case. I can always charge the battery to 100% if I want. I check carefully from time to time and find that, for example, I charge from 11% to 90% (79% change) but only get 66 kWh indicated on the charge screen (made up but approx right numbers). I know when I did the math it came to around 94 kWh if it had been 0% to 100%.

So the battery does not know how much charge it is "expected" to hold. At least that number is not used to figure the percentage charged. I don't even know if it held 100 kWh when I bought it.