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DIY solution to deadening tire noise

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Fobo Tire reports the heat of each tire real time, so I'll be able to measure the impact of the foam on tire heat. I don't think it will be much but we'll see. I'm really not concerned about this as I'm sure Recticel has evaluated all of these factors in their design of the foam and its application.

The FOBO reports air temp at the valve stem. Will this be satisfactory to reflect temp at the tread (...and does it matter)?
 
The more I've thought about it, the more I'm convinced that my concern about turbulence inside the tire was overblown. If there was a significant increase in turbulence (enough to notice energy loss or heat buildup), there would also have been an increase in noise. Since my tires are so amazingly quiet, there can't be a significant increase in turbulence!
 
The FOBO reports air temp at the valve stem. Will this be satisfactory to reflect temp at the tread (...and does it matter)?

To to it right, a thermal imaging camera mounted on the fender is required and a comparison without foam done when the conditions are identical. Doing this is about an eight on the hardness scale. The temperature at the valve will catch any gross differences (which I don't expect to see).

My gut feeling is that two psi will make more of a temperature difference than the foam. Reason is the foam is on the inside of the tire and most cooling happens on the exterior of the tire. The cooling on the inside of the tire happens at the rim surface and it's not covered by foam. Flexing the foam in and out of the contact patch area will generate some heat, but that will be minimal compared to the heat generated by flexing the steel belts.
 
This, plus the fact that in traditional ICEs, the tire noise would likely get drowned out by the engine noise many times. As such, its a better "value" to do more soundproofing for all outside noises vs. muffling tire noise. So their efforts have been focused more on quieting the cabin from the exterior versus tackling specific factors of the exterior.

Note on the Continental website ContiSilent pages they claim 9dB reduction and then say that represents 1/6 of noise in a VW Golf at 30 mph. Presumably at higher speeds engine and wind noisemight be too high to notice tire noise reduction.

Lexus LS 460 has been reported in another thread to be quieter than Model S, so in that class of ICE tire noise reduction probably would be noticeable.
 
Note on the Continental website ContiSilent pages they claim 9dB reduction and then say that represents 1/6 of noise in a VW Golf at 30 mph. Presumably at higher speeds engine and wind noisemight be too high to notice tire noise reduction.

Lexus LS 460 has been reported in another thread to be quieter than Model S, so in that class of ICE tire noise reduction probably would be noticeable.

The VW statement I am glad to see that Continental did testing on an ICE. The second statement I disagree with. The LS could simply have better soundproofing, so quieter tires would go unnoticed inside the cabin (IMO).
 
I've already shared the results of David B's tests with Recticel. They are now awaiting results of tests of the Michelin 21's for which I'll have before and after comparative data. I reminded them again that our goal is to work together to develop an after-market foam and adhesive kit for the Tesla and other EV markets that can be installed by a tire shop or on a DYI basis.
 
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Maybe It would be worthwhile sharing it with tesla also, would be nice if fitted from the factory.......

i saw saw the result of the 19", but where there any before comparative db measurements? I must have missed them...

(thanks for sharing your experience, I think this is highly interesting having bugged continental about contisilents for 19" and they said its in tesla hands)
 
David B does not have comparative measurements as he bought the 19" tires and shipped them with my 21's pretty much and at the last minute when I found that Recticel was willing to do 2 sets.

My 21's were put on new last August, and I took a month or so of sound level readings before taking them off the car. So I'll be putting them back on almost a year later and taking readings over the same roads.

I'll have the first results to report tonight and I may even post first impressions after my 15 minute drive to the office this morning.
 
just found this thread. Thank you artsci for such dedicated and professional approach to a very interesting topic.

Whilst I appreciate promarily the noise originates from the tyres, can I ask if you have tested applying sound deadening to the wheel?
This may not be as efficient as the tyre, however it may be quite effective.

Many, many years ago I strapped a layer of foam to the the wheels on a car I had at the time which was particularly badly affected by road noise and it had astoundingly positive effect, I sold the car shortly after and have never bothered to revisit the idea.
My thinking at the time was the tyre creates the noise but adhesion problems were a primary concern, but the rim resonates significantly and the air space within the tyre is an acoustic chamber, adding foam the the wheel is also a lot more reliable potentially than diy to the tyre. (I literally just bandstrapped some acoustic foam around wheel) and took the wheels to a thoroughly amused tyre shop to get the tyres refitted.

Your solution is undoubtedly the way to go, but I would suggest a noticeable benefit can be had by going for the wheels also.

It would be fascinating if you were able to test it in a comparative way using the same foam.
An optimum solution might even require both of course!
 
The advantages of fitting the foam to the tire instead of to the wheel are going to relate to centrifugal forces and heat. In an environment that's constantly spinning at high speeds, the forces will be to pull the foam from the wheel and to push it to the tire. You're fighting physics by attaching it to the wheel. Also, if the foam or the method of adhesion to the wheel ever weakens (age or environmental heat causing foam breakdown, loss of adhesion, etc.), you risk the foam breaking loose. Depending on the weight of the foam, that could be enough to throw the balance off, and even if it didn't, you could have foam bouncing around the inside of your tire and you'd just never know it was loose.

Interesting option, but I see it as a very bad idea other than proof-of-concept.
 
The advantages of fitting the foam to the tire instead of to the wheel are going to relate to centrifugal forces and heat. In an environment that's constantly spinning at high speeds, the forces will be to pull the foam from the wheel and to push it to the tire. You're fighting physics by attaching it to the wheel. Also, if the foam or the method of adhesion to the wheel ever weakens (age or environmental heat causing foam breakdown, loss of adhesion, etc.), you risk the foam breaking loose. Depending on the weight of the foam, that could be enough to throw the balance off, and even if it didn't, you could have foam bouncing around the inside of your tire and you'd just never know it was loose.

Interesting option, but I see it as a very bad idea other than proof-of-concept.

I agree with your analysis, MassModel3. In fact when I researched approaches to silencing road noise from the tires and wheels I could find no feasible approaches on the wheel side. There were a few patents but none that had ever been implemented as best as I could tell.

Now for my first impression, and they are just that -- impressions. My recent audible memory of road noise was from my 20" Pirellis which were swapped out for the 21" Michelins and Tesla 21" wheels this morning. The Pirellis are an all-season and thus relatively quiet tire, much quieter than the Michelins, which are a performance tire.

I drove 15 miles to work this am, over the same roads I drive every day. My first impression is that over different road surfaces -- from concrete to recently played asphalt - the Michelins are now as quiet as the Pirellis are.

But we'll need to see what the data reveal and that will take days of testing.
 
The VW statement I am glad to see that Continental did testing on an ICE. The second statement I disagree with. The LS could simply have better soundproofing, so quieter tires would go unnoticed inside the cabin (IMO).

Lexus does have great sound deadening. But I think the point that Artsci made early in this thread about inside tire deadening vs wheel-well deadening would apply to that class of car. Tire noise is largely conducted through wheels, axles and suspension components to the frame of the car, turning the whole body into a sort of drum head that transmits the sound into the cabin. My point was that Lexus has so effectively isolated engine and muffler noise that wind and tire noise are pretty much all that is left to control and sound deadened tires would reduce that conducted sound.
 
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Lexus does have great sound deadening. But I think the point that Artsci made early in this thread about inside tire deadening vs wheel-well deadening would apply to that class of car. Tire noise is largely conducted through wheels, axles and suspension components to the frame of the car, turning the whole body into a sort of drum head that transmits the sound into the cabin. My point was that Lexus has so effectively isolated engine and muffler noise that wind and tire noise are pretty much all that is left to control and sound deadened tires would reduce that conducted sound.

Yes, and the rule is to try to deaden the noise at the source, not upstream from the source -- and that's literally where the rubber meets the road. The foam is on the back side of that rubber.
 
David B does not have comparative measurements as he bought the 19" tires and shipped them with my 21's pretty much and at the last minute when I found that Recticel was willing to do 2 sets.
I considered buying an extra set of Michelins, just so I could do some comparison tests. I also asked Tesla about borrowing brand-new tires... I wasn't surprised when I was told no.

I ended up not going that route (1) to save some money, and (2) without more expensive sound monitoring equipment, I think the results are kinda misleading. The fact that I can definitely notice a dramatic difference makes me feel that the money I've spent on this project has been a worthy investment.
 
I'm not sure if anyone has modeled the turbulence inside a rolling tire, and I'm sure nobody has successfully done real-life measurements, so we have to resort to guessing. My guess is that the foam will dramatically increase the turbulence. That, in turn will heat the air.

I don't think it will make a huge difference, and I don't think slightly hotter air would have too much negative effect, as you'd also get the positive effect of higher pressure inside the tire (and thus, less rolling resistance).

It is an interesting thought experiment though...I certainly don't know for certain, but I'd guess that the steady-state 'flow' inside the tire is essentially a rotating toroid with very little relative motion. In context, the surface of the foam will [presumably] increase the rate of growth of the boundary layer. If both the previous statements are true, its possible that the flow would achieve steady state sooner, which could mean less total energy was wasted accelerating/decelerating the air volume. Then again...since its the same volume of air in either case, it could be the same amount of energy is wasted.

Or then again, I could be way overthinking all of this and its totally a non-issue. :cool:
 
Think of us poor saps on the Goodyear tires! At least your cars have the Michelins which are much quieter!

My S85 is currently at a Tesla service center to (among other things) replace the original 19" Goodyear Eagles with Michelin Primacy tires. The service center called to try to talk me out of the new tires, said with the remaining tread the Eagles don't need replacing. I said I know that but want them replaced anyway because after 42K miles they'd become increasingly noisy at (I believe) 200-250 Hz.

I got a P85 loaner to drive over the weekend and while the acceleration is cool the 21" Contis are loud, worse than the Eagles I'm getting rid of.

I'm following this thread with the hope that the Primacys getting installed on my S85 are the last tires I purchase that don't have sound deadening. Thank you artsci and DavidB!
 
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Yes, and the rule is to try to deaden the noise at the source, not upstream from the source -- and that's literally where the rubber meets the road. The foam is on the back side of that rubber.

Interesting point. Most of the discussion has been about the ability of foam to reduce noise by absorbing acoustical vibrations inside the tire, but it may well reduce the transmission of acoustical energy from the back side of the tread into the tire's air cavity in the first place.
 
I don't think it will make a huge difference, and I don't think slightly hotter air would have too much negative effect, as you'd also get the positive effect of higher pressure inside the tire (and thus, less rolling resistance).

It is an interesting thought experiment though...I certainly don't know for certain, but I'd guess that the steady-state 'flow' inside the tire is essentially a rotating toroid with very little relative motion. In context, the surface of the foam will [presumably] increase the rate of growth of the boundary layer. If both the previous statements are true, its possible that the flow would achieve steady state sooner, which could mean less total energy was wasted accelerating/decelerating the air volume. Then again...since its the same volume of air in either case, it could be the same amount of energy is wasted.

Or then again, I could be way overthinking all of this and its totally a non-issue. :cool:
After trying the tires for a few days, I'm convinced that I was way overthinking this issue! Nonetheless, I like your analysis.
 
I've now been living with the Recticel foam lining my Michelin Pilot Sport 21" tires for about a week and I'm here to report both data and impressions.

To be blunt the foam doesn't makes much of a difference. The data show that as do my personal impressions driving the car. The sound meter readings are basically the same as the pre-foam installation readings. It should be noted that the Pilot Sport is a very noisy tire, to be expected I suppose for a summer performance tire. It's especially noisy on concrete and other rough surfaces and the foam seems to have no impact on that noise. I'm very disappointed, but the facts are the facts.

This weekend I'm going to install my own foam using my own methods on my 20" Pirelli Cinturato P7 All Season tires. These are a much quieter tire for which I have much sound meter data already in the can. I'll be using acoustical foam I purchased before I had any contact with Recticel. Having seen the Recticel foam and the way it's installed I have my own ideas about a better way to do this. I think I may have better foam for this purpose.

The 20" wheels with the Pirelli tires go back on my car next week. I'll be driving out to TMC Connect from Maryland with them on my car so I'll have a great deal of sound meter data. I'll report back next week on whether my approach and foam makes a substantial difference on an already relatively quiet tire. If it does, later this summer I'll use my approach on the Michelins to see what kind of a difference it makes on a noisy tire.

So for now, at least for me, the jury is out.