Do any Ontarians have a green license plate?

[mknox]

I'd like to see additional privileges granted to all electric cars (PHEV, ZEV), which I see as encouragement to adopting the technology and reducing pollution. Got any suggestions? :wink:

It's a really good question worthy of some discussion. I would obviously like to see measures to accelerate the adoption of electric vehicles, but am sensitive to and aware of the concerns that some incentives are seen only as "perks for the rich". I can assure you that the provincial authorities are acutely aware of this as they don't want to be seen as giving breaks to those those who don't need it. There is even talk of removing the $8,500 rebate for cars costing over something like $50 or $60k (which essentially means Teslas).

As far as the $8,500 rebate goes, I've tried to put forth the view that the rebate is not really for the vehicle... it is an incentive to switch from fossil fuels to electricity and therefore it shouldn't matter if you make the switch in a Smart EV or a Tesla Model S. We'll see how that goes. There is still the prevailing view that anyone who can afford a Tesla doesn't need $8,500 from the government.

So... I would like to see some incentives and perks that aren't as "in your face" as, for example, HOV lane use is. Here are some thoughts:

Reduced annual registration fees for Green Plates (like currently exists for Northern Ontario residents);
Reduced or free parking in municipal parking lots (although that may be a municipality by municipality thing);
An Ontario Tax Credit on Income Taxes (reflecting the reduced societal costs of having cleaner air);
A "Super Off Peak" electricity rate for electric vehicles (could be mandated by the Ontario Energy Board);
Meaningful tax credits for businesses and employers who install public charging infrastructure.

...any other ideas?

 

[rapoport3a]

Every one of those ideas is better than anything I could come up with. Now what to do about them…?

Your first suggestion should be easy to implement. How does an electric utility charge less for electric vehicles? How does it know what's on the other end of the plug? (I figure I'm asking the right person here :tongue: )

 

[mknox]

Your first suggestion should be easy to implement. How does an electric utility charge less for electric vehicles? How does it know what's on the other end of the plug? (I figure I'm asking the right person here :tongue: )

You'd need a separate utility meter. It's not unprecedented. Other jurisdictions in the US do this and, in fact, years ago Ontario had a special "electric heat" rate where there were two meters on the outside of the house: one for heat and the other for everything else. After the rate was discontinued, some of the dual meter installations remained and utility billing systems would have to totalize the two meters for billing purposes. Most of that got cleaned up during Ontario's Smart Meter rollout.

The Super Off Peak concept has been discussed. It could simply be implemented for any electrical load and then you wouldn't need a separate meter. Maybe something like midnight to 4:00 am could be designated. It was discussed in the context of EVs but then the whole idea of why should EV drivers be the only ones to get it came up. Rates, after all, are supposed to be reflective of the actual cost of electricity production and not offered as some "perk" (as it was in the old electric heat days).

 

[mknox]

Who knew that Ontario had "Green Plates" as far back as 1941?

 

[Peter_M]

I really like the Super Off Peak rate idea, for all electrical loads, not just electric cars. This would be simpler and it would benefit EV drivers and encourage EV adoption, but it wouldn't have to be seen as a "perk" for EV drivers, since anyone can do things to shift their demand to the night, like running laundry and dishwashers at night, putting a timer on an electric water heater, and of course installing energy storage like Tesla's PowerWall. Today, the economics of PowerWall for load shifting don't make sense in Ontario, but a Super Off Peak rate could bring the payback period down to a point where it's attractive, and that would help flatten the demand curve.

And they need to make the super off peak rate significantly lower and explain it correctly. When Time Of Use rates first came out, the off-peak to on-peak spread was too small to really motivate people to shift their usage, and all the publicity about it was saying "average people's bill will stay pretty much the same" - not exactly a message that inspires behavioural changes. They should have said "if you continue to use electricity as you do today, your bill will go up, but if you shift your usage, you can save lots of money".

 

[mknox]

I really like the Super Off Peak rate idea, for all electrical loads, not just electric cars. ..

...And they need to make the super off peak rate significantly lower and explain it correctly. When Time Of Use rates first came out, the off-peak to on-peak spread was too small to really motivate people to shift their usage, and all the publicity about it was saying "average people's bill will stay pretty much the same" - not exactly a message that inspires behavioural changes.

When TOU was first introduced, the government (who initially set the rate structure) tried to make it so that if you made no changes, your bill would remain about the same, but there was the opportunity to save by shifting loads like laundry to off-peak. There has lately been a mild push to widen the gap between On and Off peak.

Another problem with TOU is that is only applies to the commodity charge. The Delivery and Regulatory charges are either fixed monthly or volumetric based, but at the same rate 24x7. Mixing the variable commodity charge with other non-variable charges dilutes the overall effect of TOU.

There is a move to eliminate the variable Delivery charge and move it all to a fixed rate. Right now, you pay your utility a fixed charge of around $15 (varies by utility) and a per-kWh charge based on your usage. The kWh component would go away and the fixed rate would go up. Since the fixed rate will likely be some sort of average, it's good news for heavy users like EV owners, but not so good for light users. It is to be phased in over 4 years. The Regulatory charges would still be consumption based. (Ontario electricity rates are a dog's breakfast!)

 

[wayner]

Yes, the Ontario electricity pricing is a mess and I don't understand the logic behind how the charges are applied. Why does the debt retirement charge vary with your usage? Because I have an EV and use more electricity I have to pay more to cover the disaster that was Ontario Hydro in the past that undercharged for electricity and was, de facto, bankrupt with $19.4B of stranded debt? That doesn't make sense. I get to pay my electrical bill and my parents bill with this charge.

 

[mknox]

Yes, the Ontario electricity pricing is a mess and I don't understand the logic behind how the charges are applied. Why does the debt retirement charge vary with your usage? Because I have an EV and use more electricity I have to pay more to cover the disaster that was Ontario Hydro in the past that undercharged for electricity and was, de facto, bankrupt with $19.4B of stranded debt? That doesn't make sense. I get to pay my electrical bill and my parents bill with this charge.

Well, to be fair, any company trying to cover its costs, be they manufacturing costs, debt, whatever, will do so in the setting of their product's price. The more product you buy, the more you pay.

 

[wayner]

Well, to be fair, any company trying to cover its costs, be they manufacturing costs, debt, whatever, will do so in the setting of their product's price. The more product you buy, the more you pay.

I agree, but this isn't covering manufacturing costs, this is covering the debt that was stranded in 1999 when Ontario Hydro that was restructured. The entity overseeing is debt is the OEFC, not Hydro One or OPG, so it isn't really a cost of a company that I am buying a product from. This was a political move to figure out who gets stuck with the bill. They decided to stick it to those who appear to have the capacity to pay, regardless of whether or not it is equitable.

 

[Doug_G]

Because I have an EV and use more electricity I have to pay more to cover the disaster that was Ontario Hydro in the past that undercharged for electricity and was, de facto, bankrupt with $19.4B of stranded debt?

Actually, we've already paid off the debt, but the government never recorded that fact. They seem to have quietly siphoned it off into their general revenue coffers, leaving a bunch of debt on the Ontario Hydro books. There's no transparency so we'll never know for sure what happened to the money, but by some calculations the whole thing should have been paid off by 2011.

 

[mknox]

I agree, but this isn't covering manufacturing costs, this is covering the debt that was stranded in 1999 when Ontario Hydro that was restructured. The entity overseeing is debt is the OEFC, not Hydro One or OPG, so it isn't really a cost of a company that I am buying a product from. This was a political move to figure out who gets stuck with the bill. They decided to stick it to those who appear to have the capacity to pay, regardless of whether or not it is equitable.

Actually, we've already paid off the debt, but the government never recorded that fact. They seem to have quietly siphoned it off into their general revenue coffers, leaving a bunch of debt on the Ontario Hydro books. There's no transparency so we'll never know for sure what happened to the money, but by some calculations the whole thing should have been paid off by 2011.

It's a giant cluster**** for sure, but it was a long time in the making and every provincial government for many years had a hand in creating the mess. Any company could have debt, and would pay it off with revenues from product sales. It would be no different if Ontario Hydro was not broken up and simply began paying it down under one company. It would be built in to rates. In this case, the Harris government decided to carve it off in to a separate company and treat it kind of like a tax.

Ontario Hydro was split into 5 successor companies (Hydro One, Ontario Power Generation, Electrical Safety Authority, Independent Electricity System Operator and the Ontario Electricity Financial Corporation). The OEFC was moved to the Ministry of Finance and, as @Doug_G points out, it became a bit of a "dumping ground" for costs beyond the original debt and there was no transparency into how that operated. I will lay the blame for that squarely at the feet of the current government. Cancelled gas plants, anyone?

 

[Jaff]

I agree with your "CF" assessment Mike...a better way to pay for this mess? ..."dock" the Gold Plated pensions of every MP (proportionately)...:wink:

 

[wayner]

I agree with your "CF" assessment Mike...a better way to pay for this mess? ..."dock" the Gold Plated pensions of every MP (proportionately)...:wink:

MPPs - this is a provincial issue.

 

[Jaff]

True...still, I'd dock em all (Fed & Prov.)...they all suck! :wink::smile:

MPPs - this is a provincial issue.

 

[iKhalid]

True...still, I'd dock em all (Fed & Prov.)...they all suck! :wink:[emoji2]

You have a chance to make it better in October [emoji4]

 

[mknox]

You have a chance to make it better in October [emoji4]

Different? Yes. Better? Doubtful :crying:

 

[Jaff]

If they all suck, how will choosing one over another make it better? :wink:

You have a chance to make it better in October [emoji4]

 

[techMology]

MPPs - this is a provincial issue.

And Ontario MPP's actually don't get a pension.

 

[Jaff]

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck...

http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/bills/bills_detail.do?locale=en&BillID=1602&isCurrent=false&BillStagePrintId=