Do I Own the Software in my Model 3?

[rdunniii]

We were only given software licensing policies when I worked for Apple and other Silicon Valley companies. They may have quoted court case or other precedent setting information during the presentations but I was not interested in that because it had no bearing on company policies.

I did say embedded software, Autocad is not embedded software.

Cisco tried the same thing with embedded software and the bankruptcy trustees of several companies were told by Cisco the embedded software on Cisco Routers and Switches was not transferable. When millions of dollars of equipment the trustees were trying to sell became worthless they sued. The courts held that to have value the embedded software legally on the systems at the time of sale was transferable. Its why you can buy used Cisco equipment today with the embedded software they came with.

This situation would be analogous to Tesla stating the embedded software on the car was not transferable. The car would not be operable without the software and thus worthless. How this might apply to FSD licenses probably needs to go though all the court processes to be resolved if Tesla were to state that FSD legally installed on a vehicle was not transferable to a new owner because it is not required to operate the vehicle. However, a new owner may not be entitled to ANY updates even if the extant software is transferable.

 

[Knightshade]

....but that's not at all what we're discussing here.

nobody is suggesting the software already on the car doesn't got with the car

On the contrary-The previous poster wanted to transfer the software to a different car.

It'd be analogous to my wanting to move the cisco software off the router a company owns and move it to a DIFFERENT router I own.

Which you can't do.

The software license is tied to the HARDWARE and is not transferable.

Some Windows OEM licenses work the same way- your Dell OEM license is tied to the specific Dell system you purchase and you can't move it to your HP when you get rid of the Dell.... (there's other licenses, like a retail windows license, where you CAN move it between hardware, as the terms are different).

 

[Knightshade]

Dose Tesla have one and can you post its location.

I think you're misunderstanding what the court case says.

It says default under US law is that software like that isn't transferable unless you have something saying it is in writing

So it's the "This should totes be legal to transfer to another car!" folks in the discussion who need to show us that in writing- not the other way around.

 

[ElectricIAC]

The model 3 currently has the best resale of any car on the market- so this appears to be an issue only in your imagination.

Tesla Model 3 Three-Year Depreciation Is 10%: EV Industry Average Is 52%

If you ignore higher trims sure. But my sticker says $78K on it and I’m about 100% certain I’m not getting $70K for my car.

 

[Knightshade]

If you ignore higher trims sure. But my sticker says $78K on it and I’m about 100% certain I’m not getting $70K for my car.

If you actually paid 78k for it you also got a $5000 refund for FUSC, and a $7500 tax credit back though

 

[SergeyUser]

Did I purchase the software when I purchased the car? If so, shouldn't I legally be able to transfer FSD from my Model 3 to a new Model Y? I know that Tesla doesn't offer this service, nor anyone else that I know of, but if someone could figure out how, wouldn't it be legal? Or does Tesla retain ownership of the software? When Chevrolet sells a Corvette, the owner can pull the motor out and put it in any car that he can fit it into, and no-one questions his right to do this. Is software intrinsically different?

All Teslas have the same software, so there us nothing to transfer (as far as software is concerned). This is not related to copyright or ownership of the software. FSD option that you are paying Tesla for requires the software, but this ‘capability’ is a thing of its own and comprises ‘car configuration’ you’ve paid for. In that sense, this ‘capability’ is not transferable. Also, as per Tesla, every Tesla is a ‘computer with wheels’. And FSD purchase is a license to use this feature on this computer (car). The same way as Microsoft sells OEM licenses, which run on specific PC.

MS run into some issues with defining what ‘this computer’ means. But it is easier with cars - this car is a car having the same VIN you paid FSD for. If you can transfer VIN (legally AND technically) - I guess it will be ‘the same car’ and thus having the same FSD feature.

 

[Paul-K]

Sorry in advance for the thread creep, but has anyone refused a Tesla update for an extended period of time? Other than the annoyance of the persistent scheduler pop-up does it ever force an update?

My reason for asking is, I bought the car with some specific features. If a future software update disables a feature that I deem essential I would think I should have the physical (and legal) ability to never allow an update.

 

[RC2785]

No, you own a license to the software.

 

[Knightshade]

Sorry in advance for the thread creep, but has anyone refused a Tesla update for an extended period of time? Other than the annoyance of the persistent scheduler pop-up does it ever force an update?

My reason for asking is, I bought the car with some specific features. If a future software update disables a feature that I deem essential I would think I should have the physical (and legal) ability to never allow an update.

Tesla has never forced an update but they have, only once, told owners if they refused to update to at least a specific level they would potentially no longer get any updates and lose access to some existing features both in the car and via the app.

The Tesla network is undergoing enhancements for increased security. In order to maintain compatibility with and access to connected vehicle features, this vehicle requires a software update to at least version 2019.40.2.3. If not updated prior to 1-May-2020, this vehicle may no longer be able to receive over-the-air software updates, access the Tesla Mobile App & associated features, utilize voice commands, receive streaming media content, and other connectivity dependent features may be impacted. Please install the available software update by selecting the yellow clock icon and choosing a convenient time. If you are persistently experiencing software update installation failures, please schedule a service appointment via Tesla Mobile App.

Without getting into the weeds, Tesla was discontinuing a specific method of secure access in favor of a different one- so they'd literally be unable to keep offering those features to your car or app if you didn't update, since the old method your car talked to home base over would no longer work after that date.

 

[DaveRZ]

Everything you do nowadays opens a can of worms is the real problem. I fully agree that If I paid for FSD and suddenly decide I need a bigger car and buy an X that it really outta transfer over (with perhaps some reasonable fee). BUT, if they do that, then what happens to my old car that is listed as having FSD? If it was originally sold with it on there, now that car has to somehow be re-documented without it so dealers don't list it as having FSD when it doesn't, and insurance companies don't charge extra for it when it doesn't have it, you'd have to magically erase original window stickers.

I think if they move to a true subscription model that it would be great if that subscription somehow followed you from car to car, even a rented car. No reason why the software couldn't be written to do that. Download your profile from the could, it could set your seat the way you want, radio presets, etc... C'mon, if Microsoft can do it with Windows, I'm sure Tesla can figure it out.

 

[SergeyUser]

Everything you do nowadays opens a can of worms is the real problem. I fully agree that If I paid for FSD and suddenly decide I need a bigger car and buy an X that it really outta transfer over (with perhaps some reasonable fee). BUT, if they do that, then what happens to my old car that is listed as having FSD? If it was originally sold with it on there, now that car has to somehow be re-documented without it so dealers don't list it as having FSD when it doesn't, and insurance companies don't charge extra for it when it doesn't have it, you'd have to magically erase original window stickers.

I think if they move to a true subscription model that it would be great if that subscription somehow followed you from car to car, even a rented car. No reason why the software couldn't be written to do that. Download your profile from the could, it could set your seat the way you want, radio presets, etc... C'mon, if Microsoft can do it with Windows, I'm sure Tesla can figure it out.

They will probably do just that when subscription is implemented. As soon as you are not driving two cars at the same time ) You need something like ‘in-the-cloud personal profiles’ with your subscriptions linked to it, requiring to authenticate each time you attempt to drive a new Tesla...

 

[Battpower]

Everything you do nowadays opens a can of worms is the real problem.

Isn't that the truth?!

The end result is, much like practically every product sold in California being labelled a 'known to cause pretty well any imaginable illness or condition', you just shut off your eyes and brain and jump..... or not.

We used to thrash software licenses out for months or years. In those days, you might have to modify the terms for a particular client. As soon as you start digging, you just end up digging more, and the only certain protection at the end of the day is stop using the software if you don't like what it does. Anything further is likely to need a third party ruling.

It also feels different with FSD if you buy it as an accessory or if you buy a new FSD capable car. My car AP / fsd came already activated so I hadn't even seen the basic disclaimers let alone any license before I started using it.

What about rentals? Are they allowed to rent FSD? And if the rental company finance their fleet, could the terms / method of finance effect what rights the rental Co have with regards to renting out certain features? (eg: say a holding Co. owns vehicles.) And all that depends on your jurisdiction! And who is responsible for AP / FSD (beta) performance when you rent?

In any case, if I have to sell my car before some significant improvement in self driving gets implemented in FSD, I will be a very very cautious and dubious prospect for buying a second time.

While I totally get the need for Tesla to see revenue and hopefully profit, don't forget that their clients deserve to see value, and honestly, as of today, I don't see much value (in UK especially) of FSD and making it transferable might at least keep me on board with Tesla (some decent incentive to buy Tesla again if I get to keep my FSD features) rather than feeling shafted and sore and encouraged by loss of FSD value to look at other manufacturers' products.