Do Plaids really get slower over time? Performance loss?

[Mudassar]

Brooks from DragTimes posted a video 5 days ago of his 2021 Plaid racing a 2024 Plaid - it seems his Plaid has gotten slower over time. I am very curious about this. Both cars had the same SOC but he was getting walked on in the top-end. Sure, all the variables... driver weight, tire pressure, wheel weight, etc. but I'd like to understand if Plaids really DO face a loss in performance as they age? I've already searched through every possible thread on here, Reddit, YouTube, Twitter/X regarding the subject but it's still not clear...Is it true? Do Plaids face a loss of performance through the years? Or, could this be software related? I've heard some owners say their Plaids feel slower after a software update sometime in 2022. Has anyone else experienced this?

Yes, I understand the difference between getting used to the power and ACTUALLY losing power.

And before I face backlash for my curiosity - no, I don't race my Plaid on the drag strip. I've gone once or twice and had a blast. I understand this may be a trivial matter to some, but I'd love to just understand how it works and what the explanation could be for this phenomenon. Also, I know that others have experienced completely different results, such as Andrew from @teslaplaidchannel, who noticed the same exact results, or often faster E/Ts, after 1900+ 1/4mi time slips - wow! What gives?

tl;dr: does the Model S Plaid "lose power" (for lack of better words) or face a loss of performance as it ages? If so, how and why? What causes this?

 

[AAKEE]

I think the NMC batteries have much less degradation

No.

(according to the Jeff Dahn research (video on YouTube)

Jeff Dagn seems to mostly discuss and develope cells for better/less cyclic aging.

For us users, we loose around 10% from calendar aging during the first 4 years or so.
A little depending on how we use the car, but the average degradation from cycles is around 0.5% each year.

I assume all newer S/X have these better batteries?

New S/X still has NCA, Panasonic NCR18650. Of course the cells has been developed since 2013-14.

Using NMC would have reduced the battery capacity from 99.4kWh to ~95kWh.
And most probably reduced the maximum power that the battery would deliver.
So, not possible to build Plaid+ and our Plaid would be more like Plaid -

There is a reason for Teslas choise to use. NCA.
We have a perfect example in the new Higland model 3 performance.
It get the NCA pack in US, and NMC(A) in rest of the world or at least EU.
Less power, charges slower and less range.

 

[AAKEE]

Yes, that's right - two full days trapped in an enclosed trailer in the brutal July heat in Florida, at 100% SOC... I'm confident that this was the reason his car performed so poorly on the top-end. What an asinine thing to do.

You are hit by the classic myth.

100% is comparable to 80%, which most people use daily. In some tests (several actually) 80% is worse than 100%.

Actual model S cells tested:

Panasonic NCR18650, same type of cells but not taken from an S.

Thats nor the issue.

Science have the test data that shows us why it differs.

 

[AAKEE]

Imagine being worried about your 9-second quarter mile car being tenths slower after years of driving it so your "solution" is to keep it at 50% (or less) SoC the entire time making it substantially slower every time you drive it.

I use low SOC for daily driving.

6 months a year, we use studded tyres due to winter/snow/icy roads.
I have killed more studded tyres than you can count to, from the high power torque of an double turbo Audi or so.

A couple of months on each side of the winter, the tarmac is cold and doesnt offer grip enough.

When needed, even at 50%, the Plaid produces almost as good power as at 90%.
(59% at a closed AFB, with dragstrip mode)

Dragstrip mode 59% or something like that.

Why buy a Plaid? What are we even doing here?

 

[GatorMeat]

You are hit by the classic myth.

100% is comparable to 80%, which most people use daily. In some tests (several actually) 80% is worse than 100%.

Actual model S cells tested:
View attachment 1064416

Panasonic NCR18650, same type of cells but not taken from an S.
View attachment 1064417

View attachment 1064418

Thats nor the issue.

Science have the test data that shows us why it differs.

where is this from? the jeff dahn charts show different results.

 

[NeuroRad]

Brooks test is invalid. Comparing arachind/21” ps4s vs 20” signature and shorter ps4s. There might be some small degradation in performance but certainly not 152 vs 146 trap. That’s massive and much more likely secondary to shorter effective gearing and less aerodynamic wheels.

 

[AAKEE]

where is this from? the jeff dahn charts show different results.

This is a few of litterally deveral hundred research reports showing the same thing.

Also, there is not a credible single one showing anything else…

Do you have any example of jeff dahn charts covering calendar aging ?

In general I would say that there is an issue with that people that focused on Jeff Dahns information think that cyclic aging is the anly thing we need to learn.

 

[AAKEE]

Brooks test is invalid. Comparing arachind/21” ps4s vs 20” signature and shorter ps4s. There might be some small degradation in performance but certainly not 152 vs 146 trap. That’s massive and much more likely secondary to shorter effective gearing and less aerodynamic wheels.

You noticed that the 2023 had 21” and Brooks had leightweight wheels?

In a situation where the cars would produce similar power, Brooks car would win, with a higher trap speed.

So, the real difference is higher.

Seems like brooks car was around 75-80hp weaker than the 2023.

 

[NeuroRad]

You noticed that the 2023 had 21” and Brooks had leightweight wheels?

In a situation where the cars would produce similar power, Brooks car would win, with a higher trap speed.

So, the real difference is higher.

Seems like brooks car was around 75-80hp weaker than the 2023.

You’re missing the point. Brooks tires are significantly shorter than the factory tires. It’s effectively equivalent to running a shorter gear. And explains why brooks could 60’ better than the 2024 yet falls off on the big end.

I’m absolutely certain Tesla did extensive testing on wheel/tire combos for the plaid and likely came to the conclusion that the extra cost for forged wheels wasn’t worthwhile. Having run forged 21s myself there’s no noticeable difference versus the Arachnids. Brooks wheels have more offset also which is another negative compared to stock.

 

[AAKEE]

You’re missing the point. Brooks tires are significantly shorter than the factory tires. It’s effectively equivalent to running a shorter gear. And explains why brooks could 60’ better than the 2024 yet falls off on the big end.

Shorter? diameter wise?

It is very clear on all drag race vehicles that lighter wheels, with less inertia will result in a higher trap speed.
(I did some drag racing in the end of the 1980-s and during the 1990s. Still have the car. Lighter wheels with less inertia equals lightening the car, which will show up as a higher traps speed. I id get thin aluminium wheels, very light like centerline but from a local vendor, and it made noticeble difference on the trap speed.)

-Less diameter means more accelereration force, as the Plaid is torque limited below ~80mph or so the possible maximun torqe would transfer s more acceleration force on smaller wheels..
-Lighter wheels means less losses to overcome inertia.
-Higher trap speed means higher effective average power. The difference on the Moroso calculator is ~100hp between 146.6 and 150.6mph, but as the Plaid does'nt have the dips an ICE engine has when the rap is lower and also gear shifts, in the 1020hp case this transfers to about 75-80hp less (not taking the advantage of the lighter wheels.

I guess you already know that the Plaid is much faster on the stock 19" then it is on the 21" ?

I’m absolutely certain Tesla did extensive testing on wheel/tire combos for the plaid and likely came to the conclusion that the extra cost for forged wheels wasn’t worthwhile. Having run forged 21s myself there’s no noticeable difference versus the Arachnids. Brooks wheels have more offset also which is another negative compared to stock.

Then you did'nt get any real lightweight forged wheels.

There is a positive difference, reducing the intertia onf the wheels.

 

[NeuroRad]

Everything you’re saying makes sense and is applicable to ICE but has shown not to 1-1 apply to EVs. If it did we would have seen low 8 second or faster plaids by now.

bottom line, comparing the same car with significantly different wheels and tires and trying to come to conclusions about power output is invalid.

 

[lbowroom]

a lighter 21 isn’t necessarily less rotational inertia than a heavier 19. It depends on how far from the center of the wheel the mass is centralized. Wheel typically weighs more than tire

 

[Sam1]

tl;dr: does the Model S Plaid "lose power" (for lack of better words) or face a loss of performance as it ages? If so, how and why? What causes this?

No. Mine has over 50,000 miles and it's still turning 9.4's @ 149 on a no prep track just like it was doing 2 years ago.

 

[Sam1]

Shorter? diameter wise?

It is very clear on all drag race vehicles that lighter wheels, with less inertia will result in a higher trap speed.
(I did some drag racing in the end of the 1980-s and during the 1990s. Still have the car. Lighter wheels with less inertia equals lightening the car, which will show up as a higher traps speed. I id get thin aluminium wheels, very light like centerline but from a local vendor, and it made noticeble difference on the trap speed.)

-Less diameter means more accelereration force, as the Plaid is torque limited below ~80mph or so the possible maximun torqe would transfer s more acceleration force on smaller wheels..
-Lighter wheels means less losses to overcome inertia.
-Higher trap speed means higher effective average power. The difference on the Moroso calculator is ~100hp between 146.6 and 150.6mph, but as the Plaid does'nt have the dips an ICE engine has when the rap is lower and also gear shifts, in the 1020hp case this transfers to about 75-80hp less (not taking the advantage of the lighter wheels.

I guess you already know that the Plaid is much faster on the stock 19" then it is on the 21" ?

View attachment 1064743
View attachment 1064745
View attachment 1064746


Then you did'nt get any real lightweight forged wheels.

There is a positive difference, reducing the intertia onf the wheels.

+1 I just cooked up a square set of 19x10 for someone to use at 22 lb each. That cuts 48 pounds of weight off compared to the arachnids & almost 20 pounds less than the OEM 19" without even counting the hubcaps. That's some legit weight reduction.

Depending on the feedback from this test I may do some additional design changes and see if I can get them down another 1 - 1.5 pounds moving forward.

 

[Krash]

+1 I just cooked up a square set of 19x10 for someone to use at 22 lb each. That cuts 48 pounds of weight…

I’d be curious as to where the weight stops making a statistical difference. I assume that is well before carbon fiber rims and titanium lug nuts.

 

[Sam1]

I’d be curious as to where the weight stops making a statistical difference. I assume that is well before carbon fiber rims and titanium lug nuts.

The wheels I use are about 23 to 24 lb each, but with the carbon ceramics on there I've cut off about 100 lb of rotational mass on the car total from the arachnids. And my car is spinning the tires for at least 200, maybe 250 ft on an unprepped track so I would say I've passed the point of benefit for acceleration on certain surfaces. Am sure it would still be a handling benefit for road courses but that's a rarity for me

 

[AAKEE]

a lighter 21 isn’t necessarily less rotational inertia than a heavier 19. It depends on how far from the center of the wheel the mass is centralized. Wheel typically weighs more than tire

In the very most cases, the 21” will have more inertia thn the 19”.
The majority of the rim weight is in the outer part, the part including seating bead on each side and joining these (maybe called rim track(?) )

 

[lbowroom]

In the very most cases, the 21” will have more inertia thn the 19”.
The majority of the rim weight is in the outer part, the part including seating bead on each side and joining these (maybe called rim track(?) )

The barrel

 

[turns2stone]

Brooks from DragTimes posted a video 5 days ago of his 2021 Plaid racing a 2024 Plaid - it seems his Plaid has gotten slower over time. I am very curious about this. Both cars had the same SOC but he was getting walked on in the top-end. Sure, all the variables... driver weight, tire pressure, wheel weight, etc. but I'd like to understand if Plaids really DO face a loss in performance as they age? I've already searched through every possible thread on here, Reddit, YouTube, Twitter/X regarding the subject but it's still not clear...Is it true? Do Plaids face a loss of performance through the years? Or, could this be software related? I've heard some owners say their Plaids feel slower after a software update sometime in 2022. Has anyone else experienced this?

Yes, I understand the difference between getting used to the power and ACTUALLY losing power.

And before I face backlash for my curiosity - no, I don't race my Plaid on the drag strip. I've gone once or twice and had a blast. I understand this may be a trivial matter to some, but I'd love to just understand how it works and what the explanation could be for this phenomenon. Also, I know that others have experienced completely different results, such as Andrew from @teslaplaidchannel, who noticed the same exact results, or often faster E/Ts, after 1900+ 1/4mi time slips - wow! What gives?

tl;dr: does the Model S Plaid "lose power" (for lack of better words) or face a loss of performance as it ages? If so, how and why? What causes this?

Is there another possibility? 2024 Plaid is just inherently faster due to ????

 

[Sam1]

The majority of the rim weight is in the outer part, the part including seating bead on each side and joining these (maybe called rim track(?) )

This may seem true just looking at a wheel, not being involved in the design, but it is not. It gets fairly complicated.

As @lbowroom said, it really depends on if you have a lower or higher rotational inertia (lower being closer to the hub, higher being around the lip).

Radial distribution of mass is what matters, and that can vary significantly based on the design of the wheel and not necessarily the diameter of the wheel. When I work on a design I almost always have the engineer make mass distribution changes after they create the first render. The last set we did, we were able to insert a channel under the outboard bead rest and remove almost 3 pounds of material from the very outside edge of the wheels, but then ended up needing to add 1 pound around the hub area where the spokes came in. We could have got away with only removing 2 pounds in that channel and left the hub alone, but we effectively removed 2 pounds and migrated an extra pound roughly 6" inwards towards the axis, which is a much better approach.

 

[bkcyk]

My Forgelines weigh ~26-27 lbs (properly load rated for the MSP), same size as Arachnids just 10 mm offset delta.

I recently swapped them out for the factory Arachnids with the original T2 PS4S tires to get my Track Pack rear calipers replaced to avoid any bush league drama at my local TSC. Plaid time couldn't pass fast enough to go back to the NWs.

The driving dynamics enhancement (i.e. braking, turning, acceleration) is readily felt more so than any perceptible loss in power due to age. Consider that weight reduction is just one slice of what a well engineered wheel will provide. It's just easier to d!q measure because everyone has access to a bathroom scale. Measuring stiffness and deflection is a whole other ball of wax where you pretty much have to put the trust in the vendor based on their R&D which is the main reason why I pay significantly more for motorsport brands (e.g. BBS, Forgeline, Volk, etc). There are levels to the forged wheels game including the actual 6061-T6 itself.

So instead of burning brain cycles lamenting over your Plaid getting older and slower as you also get older and slower and hairier in the wrong places, get yourself a proper set of shoes to unlock so much more than just outright straight line speed which we already have in excess.

I will never run the cast in China Anchornids for as long as I own my car. Back in storage they go where they belong.