Do Plaids really get slower over time? Performance loss?

[Mudassar]

Brooks from DragTimes posted a video 5 days ago of his 2021 Plaid racing a 2024 Plaid - it seems his Plaid has gotten slower over time. I am very curious about this. Both cars had the same SOC but he was getting walked on in the top-end. Sure, all the variables... driver weight, tire pressure, wheel weight, etc. but I'd like to understand if Plaids really DO face a loss in performance as they age? I've already searched through every possible thread on here, Reddit, YouTube, Twitter/X regarding the subject but it's still not clear...Is it true? Do Plaids face a loss of performance through the years? Or, could this be software related? I've heard some owners say their Plaids feel slower after a software update sometime in 2022. Has anyone else experienced this?

Yes, I understand the difference between getting used to the power and ACTUALLY losing power.

And before I face backlash for my curiosity - no, I don't race my Plaid on the drag strip. I've gone once or twice and had a blast. I understand this may be a trivial matter to some, but I'd love to just understand how it works and what the explanation could be for this phenomenon. Also, I know that others have experienced completely different results, such as Andrew from @teslaplaidchannel, who noticed the same exact results, or often faster E/Ts, after 1900+ 1/4mi time slips - wow! What gives?

tl;dr: does the Model S Plaid "lose power" (for lack of better words) or face a loss of performance as it ages? If so, how and why? What causes this?

 

[fiksegts]

Bizarre and clueless comment, this never happened. I trailered my Plaid only once enclosed when I first got it for 3 hours to Orlando.... and it ran just fine, 9.2 @ 152 MPH that day... I didn't know Tesla's melt in the sun/heat....

Hey, folks - I have figured it out!

Turns out Brooks abused his battery pretty badly. Earlier this month, he charged his Plaid to 100% SOC and stored it in an enclosed trailer before traveling across Florida with it for competitive drag races.

Yes, that's right - two full days trapped in an enclosed trailer in the brutal July heat in Florida, at 100% SOC... I'm confident that this was the reason his car performed so poorly on the top-end. What an asinine thing to do.

Very misleading video without this crucial bit of information...

Thanks everyone for your responses (except for the sarcastic ones).

 

[fiksegts]

I have, and I even mentioned that in my post... Andrew and I are friends. And he's done over 1900 passes now, far more than "hundreds"

indeed, and his car is gutted with weight reduction....

 

[fiksegts]

a note on the my wheels/tires, they are the same exact dimensions as the tesla track pack wheels and same tire sizes as well, if I put the arachnids back on my car goes even slower and I have data that shows this.... anyone who thinks their plaid won't slow down after 40k miles is mistaken....

 

[AAKEE]

Turns out Brooks abused his battery pretty badly. Earlier this month, he charged his Plaid to 100% SOC and stored it in an enclosed trailer before traveling across Florida with it for competitive drag races.

Yes, that's right - two full days trapped in an enclosed trailer in the brutal July heat in Florida, at 100% SOC...

The myths about how bad 100% is, is not true.
100% is causing a higher increase rate of internal resistance but it doesnt break the battery as most people seem to believe.

A couple of days probably doesnt cause any noticable difference.
100% is not good in the long run for the ability to deliver high power.

 

[ramirj2]

The internal resistance increases in the batteries over time.

In general Performance Teslas are limited by the battery power.

Power = Voltage x Current

So when the internal resistance increases the battery voltage sags more from the same load. As it is the voltage that drives current, the current will also be lower.
The end result is less power.

The internal resistance increase is higher the higher the SOC is.

This chart shows the increase rate of internal resistance depending on the SOC, and also temperature.
We can see that the internal resistance increases more the higher SOC we have.
The rate of the increase reduces relatively fast, but after one year the IR has increased by around 20% if the battery are at 80% SOC
View attachment 1063981


I charge to 55% daily as this reduces the Calendar aging to around half the value of higher SOC. This also reduces the rate of the internal resistance increase by about 50% as well.
In the end I will have only half the power loss over time compared to if I had used the ”usual” 80%.


Source for the picture. Its a good read in many sspects.

So, according to this is better to store the car at 20% no matter the temp?
I don't use it as a daily and keep it close to 50%. I do follow the rule to charge just the amount necessary 60-30 and occasionally to 100 just to race

 

[AAKEE]

So, according to this is better to store the car at 20% no matter the temp?

The lower the SOC, the lower the calendar aging (down to 0% real SOC)
When the car show 0% the real SOC is ~4.5%.

With very low SOC the range is not very good and the calendar aging often shos about the same between 30-55%, so 55% is the sweet spot between low degradation and range.
Charging to 55% or less (50% is the min charge level setting) reduces the Calendar aging by about 50%.

I use 55% for daily.

When I know the car will not be used for several days I leave it at low SOC.
Arriving at work (240-300 km drives) I often aim for 10-20% SOC at arrival.

Charging late is good, let the car be with the end of day SOC and use the schedule to have the charge finished with a small margin before the next days drive.

I don't use it as a daily and keep it close to 50%. I do follow the rule to charge just the amount necessary 60-30 and occasionally to 100 just to race

Good!

In general you might see less degradation if you use 55% instead of 60%.
The switchover point is around <57% true SOC, which is 55% displayed SOC on new Panasonic NCA cells.

 

[Izzyz28]

We have an 8/150 warranty on the battery, so I prefer to keep it charged at 90-100% daily. I didn't buy the car to drive at low SOC or "save" it for the next guy. If the battery fails within the Warranty period, great, I'll receive a replacement. If it does not, that's cool too. Chances are the car will be sold before that time anyways, and I'm not concerned one bit about supposedly increasing degradation. Stop the hand-wringing and convoluted charging strategies and just enjoy the cars' performance.

 

[Leftlane22]

Izzyz28 for the win.

 

[AAKEE]

We have an 8/150 warranty on the battery, so I prefer to keep it charged at 90-100% daily. I didn't buy the car to drive at low SOC or "save" it for the next guy. If the battery fails within the Warranty period, great, I'll receive a replacement. If it does not, that's cool too. Chances are the car will be sold before that time anyways, and I'm not concerned one bit about supposedly increasing degradation. Stop the hand-wringing and convoluted charging strategies and just enjoy the cars' performance.

How we handle the battery must be every owners own choice?
I can not tell you to reduce degradation and you can not tell me to always do 90% ?

I respect anyone’s decision to charge for power. Othing wrong with that.

But if I keep my Plaid for a while, I’ll outperform yours at the next stoplight (if I then chsrged enough and heated the battery.

 

[Ostrichsak]

How we handle the battery must be every owners own choice?
I can not tell you to reduce degradation and you can not tell me to always do 90% ?

I respect anyone’s decision to charge for power. Othing wrong with that.

But if I keep my Plaid for a while, I’ll outperform yours at the next stoplight (if I then chsrged enough and heated the battery.

But why would you have? If you're the type of person who charges to only 50% SoC you're not going to suddenly be the type of person who charged to 100% and pre conditioned that day just in case.

This was my point earlier in the thread. Paying a premium for the unrivaled performance of a Plaid only to never charge it above 50% is like buying a V12 Lamborghini and then pulling 6 of the spark plug boots the day you take delivery.

What was the point of buying a $250k exotic sports car to just neuter it so that the driving experience is that of a Honda Accord anyway?

 

[AAKEE]

But why would you have? If you're the type of person who charges to only 50% SoC you're not going to suddenly be the type of person who charged to 100% and pre conditioned that day just in case.

This was my point earlier in the thread. Paying a premium for the unrivaled performance of a Plaid only to never charge it above 50% is like buying a V12 Lamborghini and then pulling 6 of the spark plug boots the day you take delivery.

What was the point of buying a $250k exotic sports car to just neuter it so that the driving experience is that of a Honda Accord anyway?

Where I live, in that cold climate 55% just revently charged is enough to have the antispinn set the lower limit most days.

If I precondition, or recently charged the car, it delivers power enough at 55% to satisfy me on the *anyday* need.

 

[Nabush]

Hi All,

First drag racing night with my Plaid last night.
Ran the car with Conti Procontact RX (All Seasons). My car has 42,000 miles and is from late 2021.

1st run [email protected] (racebox showed 150.53mph) @91%
2nd run [email protected] (racebox showed the same)@88%
3rd [email protected] . Car spun around 40mph. Racebox confirmed the trap speed.@84%

My 60-130 was 4.78s

My car is lowered on N2Tive links@-6 and has some MPP suspension bits, but also was running 15/20mm spacers, which probably impacting drag a little.

I ran with a 2023 Plaid which did 9.4s@148mph(16,000miles) on the second race. He got me at the start by a little on the RT, but I pulled on him, he told me he could see me pulling. He had 80% battery during this run.

I don't think performance degradation is really significant when I see my trap speed... With better tires, probably would've been in the 9.20s

 

[Nabush]

BTW my battery was showing 800KW discharge power @91% and 796KW@84% @112F which is the target temp for "Peak Performance Ready". But it was pulling over 800kw during the runs, saw a glimpse around 830-840KW I think. Should've recorded SMT during my runs...

 

[ramirj2]

Hi All,

First drag racing night with my Plaid last night.
Ran the car with Conti Procontact RX (All Seasons). My car has 42,000 miles and is from late 2021.

1st run [email protected] (racebox showed 150.53mph) @91%
2nd run [email protected] (racebox showed the same)@88%
3rd [email protected] . Car spun around 40mph. Racebox confirmed the trap speed.@84%

My 60-130 was 4.78s

My car is lowered on N2Tive links@-6 and has some MPP suspension bits, but also was running 15/20mm spacers, which probably impacting drag a little.

I ran with a 2023 Plaid which did 9.4s@148mph(16,000miles) on the second race. He got me at the start by a little on the RT, but I pulled on him, he told me he could see me pulling. He had 80% battery during this run.

I don't think performance degradation is really significant when I see my trap speed... With better tires, probably would've been in the 9.20s

Those are brand new car number. What about your charging habits on those 42,000 miles?

 

[Nabush]

Those are brand new car number. What about your charging habits on those 42,000 miles?

I bought the car at 35,000 miles, so I cannot say previous charging habits. The car was almost never supercharged though.

Battery degradation is reported at 10.2% by SMT (88.1kwh nominal / 365 Miles of range), which is on the high side of degradation...

Since I have the car I charge daily at 50-55%... I noticed lately that my battery capacity is creeping up a little with this practice...

 

[Zuikkis]

But why would you have? If you're the type of person who charges to only 50% SoC you're not going to suddenly be the type of person who charged to 100% and pre conditioned that day just in case.

This was my point earlier in the thread. Paying a premium for the unrivaled performance of a Plaid only to never charge it above 50% is like buying a V12 Lamborghini and then pulling 6 of the spark plug boots the day you take delivery.

What was the point of buying a $250k exotic sports car to just neuter it so that the driving experience is that of a Honda Accord anyway?

The V12 and Honda Accord comparisons are a joke. I'm certain that Plaid at 25% SOC is faster than any other Tesla at 100%. It most certainly is not like a V12 running at 6 cylinders.

For me that is the thing. You can drive it anyway you like and it's always ready for competition, no matter the SOC. This is totally different to my previous MX Ludi which was very disappointing below 50%..

I usually keep my charge limit at 80%, but I mostly charge on excess solar which might only be a few kWh per day if it's cloudy.. So car usually sits at anything between 30% - 60% for most of the week. I obviously do charge it to 100% when road tripping, but I don't like driving it above 90% because the regeneration is so weak.

Here's an ancient video from Youtube, Plaid 0-60mph with 10% SOC.. 2.7seconds.

Some talk from people who actually do drag racing:

Plaid performance at different SoC

I have already seen videos how fast it is even at 20% but is there any chart/stat at different percentage to see at which point Plaid starts losing performance?

teslamotorsclub.com

"I don't think 0-60 time is affected at all until you get in the sub-20% SoC range, because that's a traction issue, not a power issue."

 

[AAKEE]

I bought the car at 35,000 miles, so I cannot say previous charging habits. The car was almost never supercharged though.

Battery degradation is reported at 10.2% by SMT (88.1kwh nominal / 365 Miles of range), which is on the high side of degradation...

The full pack when new is 99.4, and the Plaid delivered 99.3 and 99.4 kWh in the EPA tests so 88.1 equals 11.3% loss.

Since I have the car I charge daily at 50-55%... I noticed lately that my battery capacity is creeping up a little with this practice...

Very good to reduce degradation if you have that possibility

Having the car at low SOC and small cycles tends to let the battery recover some capacity.

Low SOC is also good to reduce the rate of the internal resistance increase.


For the times and trap speeds the wheels (which tyre and which rim) affects these, so comparison need to either be with stock wheels or a reference time to judge differences depending on battery power losses.

 

[Nabush]

The full pack when new is 99.4, and the Plaid delivered 99.3 and 99.4 kWh in the EPA tests so 88.1 equals 11.3% loss.

Very good to reduce degradation if you have that possibility

Having the car at low SOC and small cycles tends to let the battery recover some capacity.

Low SOC is also good to reduce the rate of the internal resistance increase.


For the times and trap speeds the wheels (which tyre and which rim) affects these, so comparison need to either be with stock wheels or a reference time to judge differences depending on battery power losses.

I do not believe anyone had real 99.4kwh when new... Most of the case looks like after the first week it drops to 96-97kwh with 92-93kwh remaining usable and 3.98kwh buffer ?

I know how to do math, SMT is somewhat reporting 10.2% as well as ABRP, not sure how they calculate it...

My wheels are stock 19's with 15/20mm spacers (which don't help for trap speed because it probably increase drag). The car is lowered though, which improves drag.

The 23/24 with 16,000 miles was slower and was also on 19's with no spacers... So this is a good comparison...

 

[AAKEE]

I do not believe anyone had real 99.4kwh when new...

The EPA tests has proved these batteries can deliver 99.3kWh (21”) and 99.4kWh(19”)

This is my car slightly more than one month since delivery. The BMS started low, but increased the estimation during one month:

NFP 98.4kWh and nominal remaining 99.0kWh.

Most of the case looks like after the first week it drops to 96-97kwh with 92-93kwh remaining usable and 3.98kwh buffer ?

Buffer is 4.5% of the nominal full pack.
3.98kWh buffer would mean 88.44 kWh total capacity. 97kWh —> 4.36kWh buffer.

My car is 14months since delivery, 28K km and I had 95.8kWh last saturday for a long drive (575km on one single charge).
Delivered 88.6kWh + parked 7hrs with sentry on (used 2.0kWh) and parked at back home with 1.51% (after the car had slept 45min)
(88.6+2)/0.985= 91.97kWh.
Including buffer this is 96.3kWh

Seems reasonable to loose around 3% after ~1 year when using the LOW SOC strategy. It matches the research result.

I know how to do math, SMT is somewhat reporting 10.2% as well as ABRP, not sure how they calculate it...

SMT showed ”degradation” about three year back. At that time they used the Full pack when new as the base, so same calc I dis in the earlier post
They later stated that people was not pleased with that calc so they removed it.
I havent seen it since.
ABRP, I do not know.

My wheels are stock 19's with 15/20mm spacers (which don't help for trap speed because it probably increase drag). The car is lowered though, which improves drag.

Probably a slight win with the lowering over the spacers.
I use 15/15mm and recently ~20 mm lovered. With/without spacers is har to notice any sure difference in consumption (should of couse not come without any increased drag) but the 20 mm lovering was detectable, like 3% or so at 60mph I think.

 

[kingtizzy007]

Had a Mach E try to zoom past me the other day and it was a rather futile attempt. By now you would think folks would know the odds of racing pass a plaid are highly unlikely. It had no chance.