Do you enjoy using "Autosteer on city streets" (current pre-release FSD) -- a poll

[bradtem]

Many of us have now used FSD-Beta pre-release extensively, operating on city streets with full time driver attention required. GM is releasing a similar product in UltraCruise and other companies have it in the works. The question of the poll -- we all find it interesting, but do you find driving this way a desirable and relaxing experience, they way you enjoy Autopilot on Freeways, or if you use it, are you mostly just trying it out and hoping for a full-release FSD that doesn't require driver attention? In the questions below, to say you "Like" a system is to say it makes driving more enjoyable or relaxing and you would pay a decent price to have it in your car. The first two answers are for people who have paid for FSD in their car, even if just for a month to try it. The poll is for Tesla drivers who have at least AP.

(Don't put much focus on what was promised vs. what was delivered, or on whether the driver monitoring is hands-on or hands-off. The question is more whether having the car do most of the driving while you watch and sometimes intervene is pleasant, and if that changes between city streets and freeway.)

 

[Tam]

...desirable and relaxing experience...

When I pay for something, I should have it. GM said hands-free Super Cruise in 2017, and it has been hands-free since the first day of sales for the past 6 years.

Tesla's system that works sometimes and not other times is not desirable or relaxing.

The survey is missing the dumb cruise option.

Some have found the TACC suffers phantom brakes and want to use a dumb cruise but not possible with Tesla's highly advanced system.

 

[EVRider-FL]

Given a choice between hands-free driving on some roads but not others vs. hands-on pretty much anywhere, I choose the latter.

 

[bradtem]

When I pay for something I should have it. GM said hands-free Super Cruise in 2017 and it has been hands-free for the past 6 years.

Tesla's system that works sometimes and not other times is not desirable or relaxing.

Trying to get away from that in the poll. What I want is for people to give their view of what they have now -- a system that will drive the car under careful supervision and needing occasional interventions, and not about how that compares with what they wanted to buy when they bought FSD.

I ask because some companies like GM with UltraCruise are selling this as an official product. The unknown factor is, "do people want that?" Or did most who bought FSD mainly seek the eyes-off product they expect it to someday be, and don't much like the monitored product? Or do people like both (obviously liking the eyes-off more.)

 

[bradtem]

Given a choice between hands-free driving on some roads but not others vs. hands-on pretty much anywhere, I choose the latter.

Hmm. Not trying to ask about your hands but your eyes. Is a product where, from time to time, you must grab the wheel, and thus you must watch at all times, a pleasant driving experience? I guess I should have asked whether hands-on/off made the difference but the key one is eyes on/off.

 

[bpnine]

FSD beta is a hobby project to invest test time in for fun but its a burden and not something I would use outside of testing (whenever I drive alone basically). Its unpleasant and occasionally terrifying and requires a lot more attention than normal driving, I can't really use it with other people in the car except as a 'demo', so its a party trick like the auto-park/summon stuff for me.

I love regular EAP on the freeway, it actually reduces mental load and I'm not nearly as tired when I get where I'm going after a long drive. Issues are the hands on wheel nagging even with hands on the wheel (torque is a poor standin for hands-on-wheel) and the freakout/system disable/forced park to reset you get when you pass a truck at 86 in an 80 zone manually (take over steering, pass and TACC is still on and bricks the system >85mph). I would be totally fine with FSD on city streets never working if they made the freeway autopilot stack run L3 (even a weak L3 limited to interstates or similar).

When FSD did kick in on the freeway on a recent road trip (because they haven't updated the map data for the new freeway in over 2 years) it was harsh and error prone at 65, much worse than the production EAP on the freeway. The map data saying the speed limit was 25 probably wasn't helping.

I'm happy I took this path (no regrets, even the $10K), I expected it to be much worse. My disappointment is not with the tech and its progress but with the company: their policy is to ghost all customers on anything related to the beta, not even a webpage with some basic FAQ's and project status much less the ability to report issues and get support. I would never recommend it to anyone until its a LOT further along or you're a super-nerd and just love playing with this stuff like I do.

 

[EVRider-FL]

Hmm. Not trying to ask about your hands but your eyes. Is a product where, from time to time, you must grab the wheel, and thus you must watch at all times, a pleasant driving experience? I guess I should have asked whether hands-on/off made the difference but the key one is eyes on/off.

Doesn’t GM Super Cruise require you to watch the road? I thought it monitored where you look, but I’m not certain it works that way today.

 

[bradtem]

Doesn’t GM Super Cruise require you to watch the road? I thought it monitored where you look, but I’m not certain it works that way today.

Correct. The GM products monitor your eyes and do not require hands on the wheel. Tesla started by only monitoring torque from hands on the wheel (or other interactions with the wheel) but added a camera to track gaze, but it still requires the torque.

However, while people have preferences about this, the poll is about whether you feel relaxed driving a system that requires monitoring and occasional intervention, or if that's not for you, and if being on city streets makes a difference from highways.

 

[beatle]

I really don't see the value in navigating on city streets right now. Navigating safely is one thing, but navigating safely as confidently and smoothly as a good human driver is another thing.

Tesla can't even get the highway behavior correct: poor following behavior, random swerves during signaled lane changes, phantom braking. Highway autopilot is the most valuable place for ADAS to function properly in order to take over in the most monotonous situations such as stop and go and long freeway cruises. I have EAP but disabled NoA as I didn't like the car's lane choices. AP1 was great for what it did. If Tesla evolved the highway ability into level 3 or 4 autonomy, I think they'd have more people opting for it vs. the city street and smart summon parlor tricks. I'd certainly grease up my wallet hinge.

 

[bradtem]

I really don't see the value in navigating on city streets right now. Navigating safely is one thing, but navigating safely as confidently and smoothly as a good human driver is another thing.

Tesla can't even get the highway behavior correct: poor following behavior, random swerves during signaled lane changes, phantom braking. Highway autopilot is the most valuable place for ADAS to function properly in order to take over in the most monotonous situations such as stop and go and long freeway cruises. I have EAP but disabled NoA as I didn't like the car's lane choices. AP1 was great for what it did. If Tesla evolved the highway ability into level 3 or 4 autonomy, I think they'd have more people opting for it vs. the city street and smart summon parlor tricks. I'd certainly grease up my wallet hinge.

Yup, some people think that. So far, though, this (non-scientific) poll does have 5 people who say they enjoy driving with FSD on city streets and find it relaxing. It would be interesting to understand the feelings of both sides.

Another thing worth learning is how this changes the better (ie. fewer interventions) a system needs. There is concern about whether people get lax and stop paying attention in that situation, of course -- worry that being relaxing is not a good thing. On the other hand, on freeways, it is fairly common to find AP relaxing while most keep paying attention. Will that happen on city streets?

 

[rayrevolver]

What bpnine said, to a tee.

BLUF: For me alone it's a relaxing experience, even with some surprises.

Short story time. Note I am at week 6 of Tesla ownership, 2020 M3LR, almost 3k miles.

Had a mini road trip on Sat and Sun with the family. Same destination both days.

First time on this freeway with FSDb and for some reason it wanted to change lanes and I didn't want it to. So we fought. It made noise, we swerved.

Wife was not impressed.

Then it wasn't phantom braking, but slowing down for no reason. Maybe like a quick throttle lift and then re-application. Wifes head bobbed a little.

Wife was not impressed.

FSDb was banned for the rest of the trip. Sigh. I did try FSDb on that same stretch Sunday and it changed lanes at what seemed like the same area.

I use it everyday on country backroads and our "city" equivalent. 35-45mph, a few stop lights. A roundabout as well.

So far I'm happy. Wish I could do dumb cruise control sometimes, especially if the wife wants to drive.

I didn't pay the same as new owners, but I paid a premium for a used car with FSDb. Bring on the new hotness with v11.

 

[bradtem]

What bpnine said, to a tee.

BLUF: For me alone it's a relaxing experience, even with some surprises.

Short story time. Note I am at week 6 of Tesla ownership, 2020 M3LR, almost 3k miles.

Had a mini road trip on Sat and Sun with the family. Same destination both days.

First time on this freeway with FSDb and for some reason it wanted to change lanes and I didn't want it to. So we fought. It made noise, we swerved.

Wife was not impressed.

Then it wasn't phantom braking, but slowing down for no reason. Maybe like a quick throttle lift and then re-application. Wifes head bobbed a little.

Wife was not impressed.

FSDb was banned for the rest of the trip. Sigh. I did try FSDb on that same stretch Sunday and it changed lanes at what seemed like the same area.

I use it everyday on country backroads and our "city" equivalent. 35-45mph, a few stop lights. A roundabout as well.

So far I'm happy. Wish I could do dumb cruise control sometimes, especially if the wife wants to drive.

I didn't pay the same as new owners, but I paid a premium for a used car with FSDb. Bring on the new hotness with v11.

It should be noted that unless you have the brand new FSD 11 release that came out last week, FSD does not operate on the freeway, that is AP. Your experience was with the lane changes of navigate-on-autopilot, not with FSD unless you were driving the new version. This poll is about using it on city streets.

 

[Tam]

...did most who bought FSD mainly seek the eyes-off product they expect it to someday be, and don't much like the monitored product? Or do people like both (obviously liking the eyes-off more.)

When I heard that Tesla could be summoned across the US, I had to jump on the bandwagon and I didn't want to miss the historical moment of the most advanced HW2 of the time.

So, I bought the FSD option because I thought I didn't have to monitor the system anymore, especially with the brand-new state of the art of HW2!

So, it is not my wish to pay to monitor FSD. I have to monitor FSD because I don't want to die.

Now that I realize that summoning across the US is not happening anytime soon, I think a good, stable, predictable ADAS such as Ultra Cruise way is the next best thing.

The ADAS should be predictable. Sudden swerving, unpredictable steering, and phantom brakes... are not helpful.

Mercedes, 40 MPH L3 on highways, is a step up by implementing no monitoring needed during the operation. It should be able to double that speed to 80 MPH in the future once no bugs are found for the current lower speed.

In summary, driverless is my goal to buy. But I can't buy that function currently, so the next available option of stable, predictable ADAS such as Ultra Cruise or Mercedes L3 would be my choice.

 

[rayrevolver]

Apologies! I suppose I don't really understand the difference or how to tell what mode I am in, FSDb vs Nav-on-AP. SW = 2022.44.30.10.

I'm in aviation where we explicitly tell the operator what modes are active.

Best I can tell you, I use the double down right stalk action as much as I can with work or home in the guidance mode. The 18 mile trip, 7mi is a 2-lane backroad, 50mph. The rest is small town America.

But glad to be here, still learning a lot, still a lot to learn!

 

[dgatwood]

Missing option, "I like FSD beta on older cars, but wouldn't buy a version that requires a camera in the car."

 

[Darscot]

I used to love enhanced autopilot. It was a dream on the highway in pretty much every situation. Tesla Vision is a major step backwards and I would happily downgrade back to radar and abandon all future upgrades. I have just lost all confidence in it and Teslas direction. It really was a life changer for daily commute, rush hour was my time to relax and enjoy an audiobook. Now it's erratic and upredictable and I am back to the grind and driving myself. I don't understand how anyone can believe it's not going backwards.

 

[Whoze]

When I pay for something, I should have it. GM said hands-free Super Cruise in 2017, and it has been hands-free since the first day of sales for the past 6 years.

Tesla's system that works sometimes and not other times is not desirable or relaxing.

The survey is missing the dumb cruise option.

Some have found the TACC suffers phantom brakes and want to use a dumb cruise but not possible with Tesla's highly advanced system.

I always get a slowdown from 20 to 10 mph on the same stretch of road. It is a wide one-way street with legal parking on one side. Since I am new, I am hoping it gets better. GM states that Supercruise only works reliably on roads with a central barrier to separate opposing traffic, And it has to be on roads in its database. If you used the same limitation with FSD, I speculate it will do just as good a job as Supercruise.

 

[Tam]

...how to tell what mode I am in, FSDb vs Nav-on-AP...

Take your pick! Some insist that only Autopilot works on highways even when you have FSD beta such as in the 8 car pile up in San Franciso.

"Then of course there is the fact that the Tesla was travelling along a five lane highway, a type of road where FSD Beta cannot be engaged and where only Tesla’s Autopilot can be activated."

 

[DrChaos]

Apologies! I suppose I don't really understand the difference or how to tell what mode I am in, FSDb vs Nav-on-AP. SW = 2022.44.30.10.

At the moment:

Blue lanes or blue center line (NoA) = Nav-on-AP

Red boundaries of driveable area, black road & white/yellow lanes or white road & black/yellow lanes: FSDb

Look for the red, that's FSDb.

 

[DrChaos]

I always get a slowdown from 20 to 10 mph on the same stretch of road. It is a wide one-way street with legal parking on one side.

Check the speed limit display. It probably thought it was a 10mph limit. Unfortunately the NHTSA 'recall' is going to make this behavior worse and force adherence to speed limit by slowing down beforehand even more.