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Do you think Ford will touch HOV lane access?

Discussion in 'Canada' started by pcons, Jul 14, 2018.

  1. pcons

    pcons Support Movember: https://mobro.co/13874276?mc=1

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    So, it's been widely discussed and well known about Ford getting rid of the ev incentive in Ontario. The political optics of that are kind of obvious (and short sighted).

    Another benefit to the EVs is HOV lane access (if you are fortunate enough to live near one and can use it for your commute). Personally, this factored into my decision to buy my volt as I was spending about $400/month on the 407. On most days the HOV lane saves me about the same amount of time as the 407 did...still not as quick, but it saves me about 20 min each way, so 40 min/day or 3.5 hours per week.

    Cancelling HOV access for EVs wouldn't really 'save' taxpayer money, and I don't see the political optics being very strong....so has anyone heard anything about the PC government stance on that? Back in the early days it was renewed on a yearly basis, until a year or so ago when the libs made it permanent.

    Hopefully Ford doesn't pull a trump and just try and undo everything the previous administration did 'for spite'...one could argue that rebates should have been reduced/eliminated...hopefully people see that the HOV access is a relatively cheap incentive that should still be kept.
     
  2. sakimano

    sakimano Active Member

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    Do people think Ford and the pc government are just mean and don't like tesla people? It's not about us. He's trying to save money for a province that is spending about 10 billion more per year than it makes. Consider the example .

    If Ontario was a family, we would be making $140,000 a year after tax and our employer (taxpayers) has just said it can't afford to pay us the $140,000/year...expect.that to get cut.

    Against this $140,000 the family is spending $150,000. The family thus is borrowing $10,000/yr against their unsecured line of credit...which already has about $350,000 on it. Oh and the interest on the LC is rising pretty steadily.

    There would eventually be a family meeting. All the 'nice stuff' we spend on would be cut back, and we'd have to run lean for a while.

    The family meeting was June 7th..

    No they won't kill HOV access. Nobody (voters) cares/complained about HOV access for green cars and it doesn't cost the province anything.
     
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  3. ZooSean

    ZooSean ZOO

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    HOV lane access is extended infinite. If Ford wants to cancel it, there will be a legal issue. And since it not costs it’s goverment any penny. I don’t think he wants to go to that route by spending more money on a legal battle.
     
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  4. TrevTremaine

    TrevTremaine Member

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    Depends upon how Ford frames it. If he implies that the only ones who are using it are wealthy, then he may attempt to remove them. That said, I don't think it's a priority unless there's a high cost to maintaining the lanes (does the money for maintaining it comes directly from carbon taxes? I would think not).
     
  5. Osteolog

    Osteolog Member

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    Wow. That you seem to think governments should be run like a household really says a great deal about your inability to offer useful information in this area. Here are a few links for you:

    One More Time, the Government Is NOT Like a Household or a Business
    Nation-states aren't households: debating their economies as if they are is stupid
    Running a Government Budget as if it Were a Household Budget Is Bad Economics
    The government is not a household, and shouldn’t be run like one
     
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  6. richyrich

    richyrich Member

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    Let's look at a quote from the Government House Leader just this week:

    "Of course there was the $14,000 rebate program for millionaires who were going to get that rebate to buy a Tesla or an electric vehicle. Those are the types of programs that were killed as a result of the cap-and-trade program"

    The "millionaires" bit tells me this is nothing to do with facts, and all about hatred. And yes, the fact he specifically called out Tesla owners there and then they did the EHVIP amendment to specifically shaft Tesla buyers tells me there is specific hatred towards us.

    Back to the point - yes, I could very easily see HOV privileges going - sticking it to those millionaire Tesla owners would be a big win with "the hard-working people". I could even see them making the argument HOVs are not worth it at all - this is all about populism and "the people" would love to get wider highways. I'd be OK with that if we do lose HOV access - they're mostly wasted here in Ottawa during rush hour - great for me but a bit silly really.
     
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  7. ZooSean

    ZooSean ZOO

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    Even with canceling the rebate, Ford government could not cut off the ppl who got plated EV but not getting the money. HOV access is announced extend indefinitely by previous government, they could not just esaily cancel it . Otherwise, ppl own EV could easily sue the government because they can say that the reason that they buy EV is because of HOV access.
     
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  8. richyrich

    richyrich Member

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    Ford can do whatever he wants within the law, as he is showing. Any of us being a bit upset about certain things is a long way from grounds for a legal challenge!
     
  9. dwharrison

    dwharrison Member

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    My bet is that Ford doesn't cancel HOV lane access for green plates, but simply cancels HOV lanes altogether. It would fit in his populist playbook.

    Exactly. Governments have almost complete ability to make changes, because otherwise they wouldn't be able to serve the purposes to which they are elected. The exception would be violating the Constitution, which obviously doesn't apply here. And you're absolutely right - there would be no ability to sue the government for cancelling HOV lane access.
     
  10. ZooSean

    ZooSean ZOO

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    If Ford do cancel HOV , I am sure that there will class of action that some lawyer will be interested to start.
     
  11. kzod

    kzod Member

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    Wow, your decision to post that link says plenty about your own understanding of economics. lol. At the end of the day a country has a lot more flexibility than a typical household, but like a business the money it spends needs to be smartly spent. Just printing money and spreading the love leads to a bankrupt state as seen in Zimbabwe. Spending $100 Million to create $50 million in new wealth is not growing the pie.
     
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  12. Darscot

    Darscot Member

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    Mathematically HOV lanes for EVs makes no sense so I think its a short term perk. The best thing they could do environmentally is banish all industrial vehicles to the slow lane open all remaining lanes to everyone. They also need to be far more aggressive ticketing people that will not move over and let traffic flow. Reducing the amount of time an EV is on the road does nothing for the environment, we need to be doing things to get traffic flowing for everyone. It drives me insane the number of times both the HOV and the fast lane are crawling because a work van is dawdling along in the HOV and everyone is cutting into the fast lane trying to get around and it brings both lanes to a snails pace. If people would just drive faster in the left lane than the right I would happily see the HOV lanes ended.

    I am in BC but I do think HOV is on borrowed time\ in general.
     
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  13. sakimano

    sakimano Active Member

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    #13 sakimano, Jul 18, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
    that's the kind of thinking that gets people deep in debt. Posting links to a bunch of heavily liberal partisan sources justifying monster debt totals isn't helping your credibility lol. Huff post ? Washington Post? No liberal bias there :) . Elaine Glaser? She's a PhD alright...in English Literature lol. Here's her bio..."She has blogged for The Huffington Post.[4] and is a contributor to The Guardian, where she has written articles on contemporary propaganda, fake authenticity, Astroturf politics, cyber-utopianism, and the ideology of natural childbirth.[5]/. There's another PhD in there...this one's a mechanical engineer. Here's his bio "In addition to his publications on The Huffington Post, many of his articles have been published on Dissident Voice, Antiwar.com, Common Dreams and elsewhere."

    Strong huffpost theme going. Didn't see a lot of folks with strong economic chops in your source list there :)

    Consider this. We have roughly $300 billion in debt as a province, here in Ontario. Your partisan articles written by a bunch of kids who weren't around in the 70s or 80s indicate running massive debts is just fine and we shouldn't sweat indebtedness the way a household has to. The one guy Adnan is about 60...and is a mechanical engineer. You don't want mechanical engineers in charge of your economic theory any more than you want an economist in charge of vetting

    Considering interest rates have largely been in freefall for 30 years...aka the lifespan of those 3 writers...would indicate they don't recall the challenges of rising debt service costs and the consequences that has on other government programs.

    Imagine interest rates returned to their 20 year averages in this province. We'd see debt costs on maturing bonds costing the province about 3% more than if they were issued today. And 4% more than if they were issued 2 years ago when the province refinanced a boatload of its debts (great move but on renewal...we're in trouble). This knowing that the 20 year average is heavily skewed down by the post financial crisis period.

    4% on $300 billion is $12 billion dollars. Per year. Extra interest...i.e. on top of what we pay today. It becomes one of our biggest 'programs'. In terms you might understand:

    It equals the same as 20% of our ENTIRE healthcare budget.
    It equals almost 50% of our ENTIRE education budget.
    It equals 100% of our ENTIRE infrastructure budget.

    The consequences of that increased debt service cost means more and more cuts to services, programs. Or more debt to keep piling on and further credit concerns about our province...resulting in us paying even higher rates to finance debts irrespective of where market yields go. None of those are good solutions to live through.

    Being smug and saying 'it's different this time' is going to get the next generation saddled with a seriously bleak future if we're all not careful.
     
    • Informative x 1
  14. realtycoon

    realtycoon Member

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    On the topic of HOV Lanes, if you aren't going to go faster than the flow of traffic on the non HOV lanes, then get the F out of the HOV lanes and let the rest of us who are using it to save time, actually use it to save time. Yes this is for the idiot in the Leaf going 90kmh this morning on the south 404 HOV. Rant Over/
     
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  15. 5_+JqckQttqck

    5_+JqckQttqck Member

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    Almost as bad as three tractor trailers lined side by side hogging and slowing down three lanes. If the government was serious about congestion, they'd make a TT/BUS lane on the far right on all our 400 series of highways - no cars allowed unless it's an emergency avoidance incident. Would keep the left lanes flowing instead of the mess of traffic jams every time there's a valley/hill (DVP, Mavis/Mississauga Rd).

    But the reality is the government is a bunch of elected patsies for big oil - this would never be considered by the current government.
     
  16. ZooSean

    ZooSean ZOO

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    In the contrary, I have been driving on 404 North / South, and put my autopilot on at 105km. There always cars trying to push me in the back, and most of cases those are the ones illegally drive on HOV lane.

    I agree that leaf should not occupy the HOV as they better to follow a trunk to save battery. I had leaf before and that what I was doing.
     
  17. realtycoon

    realtycoon Member

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    Really depends on the flow of the other lanes. If the other lanes are also at 105-110, you are too slow.

    If the other lanes are at a standstill, I generally go about 80-90 (Always have to assume some a$$ will cut in from the neighboring lane.

    They need physical separation for the HOV, similar to the poles used on the Richmond/Adelaide bike lanes and used in many US states.
     
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  18. ZooSean

    ZooSean ZOO

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    I don’t think driving according to legal speed limit is anything wrong with it. The HOV does not exempt the speed limit requirement.

    If you guys tried to argue that speed limit does not mean anything to you. Okay then.
     
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  19. Darscot

    Darscot Member

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    Why is it so hard for people to just drive in the lane going the speed they want to go. If you want to drive the limit you have no business in the left lanes. They really need to fix speed limits and set them properly.
     
  20. ZooSean

    ZooSean ZOO

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    The HOV lane the location is the left lane not meaning that it shall be the fastest lane . Ppl could drive HOV lane with the speed limit . It is totally different that drive leftist lane which fastest lane.
     
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