Do you think the performance AWD specs will make us say "wow"?

[McRat]

...
Men can have their performance car that is also their family car. I predict that the high-end Mustang/Camero/Charger/Challenger sales will take a very noticeable hit.

Most performance cars are bought for image. Part of that image comes from racing successes by others, and professional drivers setting performance records.

People see this: <- Video of track test.

And then buy the cheaper version. Because let's face it, $73,000 is a lot for a "Camero" (sic).

Will a Model P-3LR outrun it? If we are lucky, it will beat it to 60 mph, but it's unlikely to catch one in the twisties. It laps faster than most Porsches coupes and all BMWs. It's not power to weight, it makes up time in the corners.

The only way to attract these buyers is to take scalps on a track. Nobody actually worries about 0-60 times on these kinds of cars that you can't floor under 60 mph.

 

[kbM3]

Hope you are correct buy I suspect they will not surpass performance of the base 100D (at least on paper).

I don’t know why you believe that. The performance models of the Germans are always the smaller cars. They 7 series, Panamera, S class et. al. don’t carry the performance banner. They’re too large.

I would look at the M3 for clues as to price on the Model 3 performance version. Probably a high 60s/low 70s starting price, probably top out close to $100k.
I'd guess low 3s for 0-60. Don't see it luring many of the pony car crowd, they are too different of cars. The high end pony cars handle way better, and are more track focused, where as the 3 will never make a great track car. I do think it will steal M3/RS4/C63 buyers though.

I predict the Model 3 performance will be designed for the track and do very well.

 

[McRat]

...
I predict the Model 3 performance will be designed for the track and do very well.

They should at least offer a track variant, but it probably will not sell in quantity.
What it takes today to be competitive in the 'sports car wars' is a lot of expensive parts.
It's not the engine that drives the price into the sky. You start with a car that has the power necessary and great street handling, then you put expensive components onto it and spend a lot of money/time optimizing it.

Ford Focus - Add $7k for stage 1 and full track is $23k over the base.
Camaro V8 SS - Add $35k to the fast and competent version to get the Track version.
Porsche 911 - Add $202k to the fast and competent version to get the Track version.

How far should Tesla go if they want to have a halo Model 3? Perhaps brakes, trick shocks, trick electronics, downforce, wheels and tires, and extensive tuning? $25k? That's not the really good parts.

 

[Uncle Paul]

The joy in a Tesla is not the full race track performance, but the exquisite torque control of an electric motor, combined with the very low center of gravity from the battery placement.

It used to be that people would buy cars because of an article in an automotive magazine where a professional driver would report how great they were on a track surface. While those customers might never race on a track surface, they wanted (and paid big bucks) for it's competitive capabilities.

Much of this money was simply wasted on Ego strokes because few retail customers really wanted to pay the price in tires, fuel, potential crash damage, and upgrade parts to actually race against other prepared cars.

Tesla is providing rewarding and relatively high performance vehicles, with reasonable levels of performance, along with great driving experiences. Cherry on the cake is the fantastic auto pilot that takes much of the non-rewarding driving experience in heavy traffic, or on long stretches of cruising highway away, while still leaving the self driving option when desired.

Believe customers are taking a fresh look at what really makes a drive enjoyable. Is a vehicle with high performance capabilities on a race track, but no place to enjoy that performance on the street really something to command a premium price.

I used to track my Viper. Great fun, but the expenses of replacing tires, brakes and track maintenance got old quick. I remember an especially nice day at Buttonwillow where I calculated my on track fuel economy of 2.2 MPG.

Driving my Tesla is a pure joy on the street. I can use it's full accelleration at any moment. Instant throttle response plug all wheel drive puts me far ahead of any of the muscle cars. No waiting to drop down a couple gears and wait for the engine to get into it's power band. No loosing traction as the revs rise, no loud engine/exhaust noises to tip off others that I was making time. Police pay me no notice (good), granny does not get upset, and all the power is efficiently put to the ground.

 

[Krazaak]

They should at least offer a track variant, but it probably will not sell in quantity.
What it takes today to be competitive in the 'sports car wars' is a lot of expensive parts.
It's not the engine that drives the price into the sky. You start with a car that has the power necessary and great street handling, then you put expensive components onto it and spend a lot of money/time optimizing it.

Ford Focus - Add $7k for stage 1 and full track is $23k over the base.
Camaro V8 SS - Add $35k to the fast and competent version to get the Track version.
Porsche 911 - Add $202k to the fast and competent version to get the Track version.

How far should Tesla go if they want to have a halo Model 3? Perhaps brakes, trick shocks, trick electronics, downforce, wheels and tires, and extensive tuning? $25k? That's not the really good parts.

I could be wrong, but I don't see that as a focus area for Tesla. I think that will come from the aftermarket community.

 

[McRat]

The joy in a Tesla is not the full race track performance, but the exquisite torque control of an electric motor, combined with the very low center of gravity from the battery placement.

It used to be that people would buy cars because of an article in an automotive magazine where a professional driver would report how great they were on a track surface. While those customers might never race on a track surface, they wanted (and paid big bucks) for it's competitive capabilities.

Much of this money was simply wasted on Ego strokes because few retail customers really wanted to pay the price in tires, fuel, potential crash damage, and upgrade parts to actually race against other prepared cars.

Tesla is providing rewarding and relatively high performance vehicles, with reasonable levels of performance, along with great driving experiences. Cherry on the cake is the fantastic auto pilot that takes much of the non-rewarding driving experience in heavy traffic, or on long stretches of cruising highway away, while still leaving the self driving option when desired.

Believe customers are taking a fresh look at what really makes a drive enjoyable. Is a vehicle with high performance capabilities on a race track, but no place to enjoy that performance on the street really something to command a premium price.

I used to track my Viper. Great fun, but the expenses of replacing tires, brakes and track maintenance got old quick. I remember an especially nice day at Buttonwillow where I calculated my on track fuel economy of 2.2 MPG.

Driving my Tesla is a pure joy on the street. I can use it's full accelleration at any moment. Instant throttle response plug all wheel drive puts me far ahead of any of the muscle cars. No waiting to drop down a couple gears and wait for the engine to get into it's power band. No loosing traction as the revs rise, no loud engine/exhaust noises to tip off others that I was making time. Police pay me no notice (good), granny does not get upset, and all the power is efficiently put to the ground.

You are being too logical.

The Camaro and Mustangs are 2+2 cars, as are some other performance coupes. The sales numbers favor the cheaper versions. They are buying an image, and the image was created by the insane versions. But pony cars aren't exclusive that regard, other brands also sell based on their track pedigree but the buyers do not end up with the track versions, just something that has the look. Make no mistake though, the base models today are quicker and handle better than what was sold in the 60's and 70's and provide the buyer with great performance. They are a better choice for less experienced driver.

The Tesla Model 3 is a more logical choice than a pony car and has a better balance between performance and utility. However the pony cars are a 'want' car, not a need car. The issue of usefulness never comes into their buying decision.

Many folk on this board are more 'experienced' (older sounds harsh ) and lived out their street terror phase, so they tend to use more logic in their buying choices.

But the question was whether the Model 3 would steal away Mustang and Camaro buyers. I suppose it could happen, but I don't think it will. We will see.

 

[Krazaak]

You are being too logical.

The Camaro and Mustangs are 2+2 cars, as are some other performance coupes. The sales numbers favor the cheaper versions. They are buying an image, and the image was created by the insane versions. But pony cars aren't exclusive that regard, other brands also sell based on their track pedigree but the buyers do not end up with the track versions, just something that has the look. Make no mistake though, the base models today are quicker and handle better than what was sold in the 60's and 70's and provide the buyer with great performance. They are a better choice for less experienced driver.

The Tesla Model 3 is a more logical choice than a pony car and has a better balance between performance and utility. However the pony cars are a 'want' car, not a need car. The issue of usefulness never comes into their buying decision.

Many folk on this board are more 'experienced' (older sounds harsh ) and lived out their street terror phase, so they tend to use more logic in their buying choices.

But the question was whether the Model 3 would steal away Mustang and Camaro buyers. I suppose it could happen, but I don't think it will. We will see.

I agree, I think the biggest impact is going to be on the German manufacturers. I may be biased, having come from nearly 2 decades of BMWs, but I see performance and price coinciding more closely with BMW than I do Ford or Chevy. The Model 3 LR matches up pretty nicely with a BMW 340i and I envision the Model 3 LR P being a close match to the BMW M3. If they could develop and implement and ABS based torque vectoring, it might help close the cornering gap.

I traded a BMW X6M for my Model X P100D and it's quicker, but not as nimble in the corners without the torque vectoring in the X6M. We just traded my wife's BMW 335i for the Model 3 and it's quicker and closer in cornering, since the 335i didn't do anything special in that regard; but it feels a little less sure footed, most likely due to the stock 18" tires vs. the performance 18s on the BMW.

I just got an opportunity to drive a BMW M4 on a track last week and the Model 3 LR P is going to need more than just more power to be a true challenger. The AWD will help, but not sure it will be nimble enough without torque vectoring. Will obviously need better brakes, although probably doesn't need to go all the way to the carbon ceramics on the BMW.

 

[kbM3]

They should at least offer a track variant, but it probably will not sell in quantity.
What it takes today to be competitive in the 'sports car wars' is a lot of expensive parts.
It's not the engine that drives the price into the sky. You start with a car that has the power necessary and great street handling, then you put expensive components onto it and spend a lot of money/time optimizing it.

Ford Focus - Add $7k for stage 1 and full track is $23k over the base.
Camaro V8 SS - Add $35k to the fast and competent version to get the Track version.
Porsche 911 - Add $202k to the fast and competent version to get the Track version.

How far should Tesla go if they want to have a halo Model 3? Perhaps brakes, trick shocks, trick electronics, downforce, wheels and tires, and extensive tuning? $25k? That's not the really good parts.

My guess is the BMW M3 will be the bogie.

 

[davidc18]

I hope Tesla surprises us with the M3P. I am waiting on my reservation until it comes out and we have some real numbers on its performance.