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DOE wants 5X battery power boost in 5 years

Discussion in 'Energy, Environment, and Policy' started by blaz, Nov 30, 2012.

  1. blaz

    blaz Member

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  2. CapitalistOppressor

    CapitalistOppressor Active Member

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    I'm a big fan of this type of government supported R&D. Even if they fail to hit their targets, nothing but good comes out of this type of research, even if it's just identifying techniques that lead to failure.
     
  3. ToddRLockwood

    ToddRLockwood Active Member

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    1,000 mile range, here we come! I've wondered why Panasonic has stuck with the same form factor for Lithium-Ion cells used in cars. Why not something on the order of a C or D size cell? Perhaps the current package offers the best compromise between heat dissipation and energy density.
     
  4. byt

    byt Member

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    300 x 5 = 1,500 miles... Kinda overkill though, no?
     
  5. aronth5

    aronth5 Long Time Follower

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    Or you could also look at differently. 500 mile range with significantly lower battery cost. Could easily design a model that comes in at $20-25k range.
     
  6. AnOutsider

    AnOutsider S532 # XS27

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    That's what I was thinking. Good move on the doe. The only downside I can see here is some scrappy company coming along, pretending to research, and sucking down dollars -- and in this case, they're controlling it all, so no prob!
     
  7. strider

    strider Active Member

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    A given chemistry can only store a given amount of energy in a given amount of volume/weight. Changing the packaging (putting 1lb of Li-Ion "goo" into 5 cells or 50) doesn't change the capacity. You have to change the chemistry to change the capacity.
     
  8. neroden

    neroden Happy Model S Owner

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    My friends with the new energy storage design don't want to take government money because there are simply way too many strings attached, and they're sick of government contract work. Suffice it to say that their design already has 100 times the energy density of your typical battery. So, dammit, this problem is actually solved already.

    Just gotta find the right investor (most of them come with too many strings attached, too) and get the prototype built...
     
  9. fengshui

    fengshui Member

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    It'll be interesting to see how long it takes to commercialize this technology if it ends up being successful. Anyone know how long it would be between a research breakthrough and when we'd see shipping battery systems based on said breakthrough?
     
  10. Rodolfo Paiz

    Rodolfo Paiz P85 "Plug and Play"

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    If you do get a 5x improvement in capacity, that also allows you to use a battery with 1/5 the number of cells you currently use. So you can keep the same 300-mile range as the current S85, but do it for $8,000 instead of $40,000. It'd sure be nice to make the Model S $25,000 to $30,000 cheaper, don't you think? The battery pack would also weigh about 200 pounds instead of nearly 1,000 in today's cars, and shaving 800 pounds off the car's curb weight means it'll grip better, perform better, and use even less energy per mile.

    Nothing wrong with better batteries. :)
     
  11. rcc

    rcc Model S 85KW, VIN #2236

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    My guess: 3-5 years assuming the research breakthrough can be successfully scaled to mass production.
     
  12. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    And another 3-5 years before someone decides to commercialize it.
     
  13. jeffhre

    jeffhre Member

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    And one more year for automakers validation processes to test and certify for on the road use.
     
  14. yobigd20

    yobigd20 Well-Known Member

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    Interesting article. "Nanostructures Boost Battery Life Fivefold - The materials could make batteries that store more than twice as much energy as lithium-ion ones." http://www.technologyreview.com/news/509501/nanostructures-boost-battery-life-fivefold/

    Sounds like technology has some of these able to hold 67% after 1000 charges, and I think their goal is 80% after 3000 charges. Man ... I know I'm spending $100k for car technology that is advanced now, but at the same time I know for a fact that it's basically no different than every time I build myself a state-of-the-art computer. It is technology that will be outdated eventually. As much as I definitely desire my Tesla to last me longer than 7 years, I am pretty damn sure that in 7 years the Tesla's that will be coming out then will have battery technology far beyond this and will even put their own original Model S's to shame. I think I'll have at least about 3-4 years before the current technology will look at little outdated. Oh well. I guess for now I'm going to have a little fun with my perf model ;)
     
  15. wycolo

    wycolo Active Member

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    Yeah, but there are pesky incidences of asymptoticness like how CPUs have reached a functional limit at around 2 - 2.5 ghz. Beyond this speed heat rises too much to remain a practical choice. Maybe indeed you can only squeeze just so much juice from a turnip, and no more. So much juice from a given battery weight. Someone should start an UhrChart of this, like that National Debt digital counter in Times Square. Has that been taken down due to exceeding building width (hah)? Moore's Law, too, proven non-linear.
    --
     
  16. Robert.Boston

    Robert.Boston Model S VIN P01536

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    There's an important difference (at least one) between a car and a computer. Many of the high-value parts of a computer are tied to its designed speed: not only the CPU, but the bus clock rate, and consequently the main memory, memory caches, disk caches, and so forth. Plopping in a new CPU doesn't get you the benefits of replacing the whole system.

    In contrast, if in 8 years Tesla offers a new 120kWh battery that weighs half of what the 85kWh pack does today, in the same form factor, then every Model S sold today instantly can gain range and performance. The majority of the value of the car doesn't depend on the battery pack--as testified to by the fact that there's no difference between a 40kWh car and an 85kWh car aside from the battery and its inherent limitations.

    Of course, there's the question of whether it's rational to invest ~$20k in replacing the battery in an 8-year-old car. In an ICE, there are so many systems that can fail, but in a Model S, there are many fewer wear parts and, so, I think it's reasonable to suppose that frugal owners will be willing to hold this car for 15+ years as a daily driver. Bring on the super-range, low-cost batteries!
     
  17. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    Works for me. My sincere hope is that Tesla doesn't pull a "Singer". Where the first products they make are very durable (as in last forever) and then later they try to get those products back and destroy them so they can sell cheap products that only last a few years.
     

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