Good feedback here, the only thing I would add is this: Make sure your outlet and wiring are in very good condition. Pulling power from them constantly puts a lot of stress on older or worn outlets.
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Does anyone charge from a regular wall outlet?
- Thread starter Finley&OtisDad
- Start date
eprosenx
Active Member
I will second this.
While I don't plan to charge from 120v at home ever, while I was doing a bunch of electrical work to get ready for my M3 I realized several of my garage outlets were cracked, the spring holding tension on one was low, the outside one was not water resistant, one of the plugs had a loose wire shoved in a compression connector on the back, and they were not on GFCI! So I replaced four receptacles (the first in the chain with a GFCI), and I upgraded them all to 20a receptacles (they were 15a before but were on a 20a circuit).
So now I can test my Wall Connector at 15a or 20a 120v (I bought both adapters for the UMC) or I can let any friends that come over with other EV's or PHEV's use that circuit.
I can not stress safety enough when charging electric vehicles. They can take most circuits all the way to their max rating and hold the current draw there for many hours. It is basically the most intensive thing you will ever connect to your electrical system so please take care. (note that I don't think they are unsafe, but care needs to be taken)
Thank you all so much for this feedback- it is really helpful. Here is some more context and also reflections on your feedback.
-Pricing: Currently, I pay a steady rate for my electricity-approximately 12.5 cents/kWh (combined generation/transmission). However, I have solar panels that produce, at least so far, 100% or more of my electricity needs. Given the added electrical use that this car will represent, I plan to switch to real-time pricing when the car arrives. My hope is that between times of negative to low pricing (generally overnight when I would be charging anyway), I can mitigate the cost of my additional electrical usage, if it's not covered by my own production from my solar array. My private game will be trying to charge my car for free, of course, making sure I don't end up with a dead battery because I tried to be too clever and save a penny here or there.
-Climate/hardware: I am in Chicago so your feedback on how cold affects the batteries is very helpful. As a result of that, I am having my solar company, which is now doing tesla vehicle charger installs as part of their business, price out what it would be to get a Nema 14-50 plug (that's the dryer plug, right?). I potentially still want to try and make this work without additional electrical work (and trenching since I have a detached garage). Also, the garage is very new so the electrical outlets are all in great condition. All that said, if the battery drain due to the cold weather proves excessive, it will become a necessity to upgrade.
-Distance/Recharge rates: I definitely know I will be shelling out for some supercharger time or extra destination charging in the beginning because the temptation to take people for rides or just drive my car myself in the beginning will definitely be overwhelming. However, as I am close to a major city, I have been able to find many restaurants, hotels, movie theaters, malls, that have chargers that are free. In any event, once my driving behavior settles back to my routine, I have mapped out my commute and it's almost exactly 15 miles each way, 30 miles round trip. Assuming an average rate of charge of 4 mph, I should be able to recoup that distance and any additional drain from A/C, acceleration during my overnight charging time (figuring charging from about 8 pm-7 am or 11 hours). Many days I would start charging potentially earlier than that; however, then I run into the real-time electrical pricing issue. My electric utility practices net metering and I can "bank" unused kWh I produce over a 12-month period so even if the price surges, I should be able to draw from this bank of solar production.
One question that I have for the community:
What is the kWh to mph charge rate? An early responder said 1.1 to 1.2 kWh per hour of charge (figuring an average of 4 miles of charge). Is this about right?
Thanks again for the responses- I realize that I probably have 12 months of wait time in front of me since I made the reservation a few days ago, but it's fun to post on here now instead of just watching. Without a reservation or a car, posting felt like I would be a fraud
-Pricing: Currently, I pay a steady rate for my electricity-approximately 12.5 cents/kWh (combined generation/transmission). However, I have solar panels that produce, at least so far, 100% or more of my electricity needs. Given the added electrical use that this car will represent, I plan to switch to real-time pricing when the car arrives. My hope is that between times of negative to low pricing (generally overnight when I would be charging anyway), I can mitigate the cost of my additional electrical usage, if it's not covered by my own production from my solar array. My private game will be trying to charge my car for free, of course, making sure I don't end up with a dead battery because I tried to be too clever and save a penny here or there.
-Climate/hardware: I am in Chicago so your feedback on how cold affects the batteries is very helpful. As a result of that, I am having my solar company, which is now doing tesla vehicle charger installs as part of their business, price out what it would be to get a Nema 14-50 plug (that's the dryer plug, right?). I potentially still want to try and make this work without additional electrical work (and trenching since I have a detached garage). Also, the garage is very new so the electrical outlets are all in great condition. All that said, if the battery drain due to the cold weather proves excessive, it will become a necessity to upgrade.
-Distance/Recharge rates: I definitely know I will be shelling out for some supercharger time or extra destination charging in the beginning because the temptation to take people for rides or just drive my car myself in the beginning will definitely be overwhelming. However, as I am close to a major city, I have been able to find many restaurants, hotels, movie theaters, malls, that have chargers that are free. In any event, once my driving behavior settles back to my routine, I have mapped out my commute and it's almost exactly 15 miles each way, 30 miles round trip. Assuming an average rate of charge of 4 mph, I should be able to recoup that distance and any additional drain from A/C, acceleration during my overnight charging time (figuring charging from about 8 pm-7 am or 11 hours). Many days I would start charging potentially earlier than that; however, then I run into the real-time electrical pricing issue. My electric utility practices net metering and I can "bank" unused kWh I produce over a 12-month period so even if the price surges, I should be able to draw from this bank of solar production.
One question that I have for the community:
What is the kWh to mph charge rate? An early responder said 1.1 to 1.2 kWh per hour of charge (figuring an average of 4 miles of charge). Is this about right?
Thanks again for the responses- I realize that I probably have 12 months of wait time in front of me since I made the reservation a few days ago, but it's fun to post on here now instead of just watching. Without a reservation or a car, posting felt like I would be a fraud
NEMA 14-50 is not a dryer outlet. This is a common misunderstanding as both are 240V. . The 14-50 is a 50A circuit (this is what Tesla recommends and the connector that comes with the UMC) and dryer outlets are 30A circuits. Here is the install guide
https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/US/universalmobileconnector_nema_14-50.pdf
:
https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/US/universalmobileconnector_nema_14-50.pdf
:
The 5-15 outlet is painfully slow for me... I immediately got the 14-50 and couldn't be happier. It's worth the investment and then some. I also just put over 3500 miles on my 3 in the last month without any road trips... It's too fun to drive and you'll get tons of requests from other people who want to check it out. Its nice not worrying about range or wondering where I'm going to plug the car in.
davewill
Active Member
I triple this, and add that you should make sure that you know what other outlets or lights are on the same circuit. Find the breaker and turn it off, then go around with an outlet tester to check. No sense blowing the breaker because you didn't know that the same circuit fed the outlet you plugged your mower into.
Thank you all so much for this feedback- it is really helpful. Here is some more context and also reflections on your feedback.
-Pricing: Currently, I pay a steady rate for my electricity-approximately 12.5 cents/kWh (combined generation/transmission). However, I have solar panels that produce, at least so far, 100% or more of my electricity needs. Given the added electrical use that this car will represent, I plan to switch to real-time pricing when the car arrives. My hope is that between times of negative to low pricing (generally overnight when I would be charging anyway), I can mitigate the cost of my additional electrical usage, if it's not covered by my own production from my solar array. My private game will be trying to charge my car for free, of course, making sure I don't end up with a dead battery because I tried to be too clever and save a penny here or there.
-Climate/hardware: I am in Chicago so your feedback on how cold affects the batteries is very helpful. As a result of that, I am having my solar company, which is now doing tesla vehicle charger installs as part of their business, price out what it would be to get a Nema 14-50 plug (that's the dryer plug, right?). I potentially still want to try and make this work without additional electrical work (and trenching since I have a detached garage). Also, the garage is very new so the electrical outlets are all in great condition. All that said, if the battery drain due to the cold weather proves excessive, it will become a necessity to upgrade.
-Distance/Recharge rates: I definitely know I will be shelling out for some supercharger time or extra destination charging in the beginning because the temptation to take people for rides or just drive my car myself in the beginning will definitely be overwhelming. However, as I am close to a major city, I have been able to find many restaurants, hotels, movie theaters, malls, that have chargers that are free. In any event, once my driving behavior settles back to my routine, I have mapped out my commute and it's almost exactly 15 miles each way, 30 miles round trip. Assuming an average rate of charge of 4 mph, I should be able to recoup that distance and any additional drain from A/C, acceleration during my overnight charging time (figuring charging from about 8 pm-7 am or 11 hours). Many days I would start charging potentially earlier than that; however, then I run into the real-time electrical pricing issue. My electric utility practices net metering and I can "bank" unused kWh I produce over a 12-month period so even if the price surges, I should be able to draw from this bank of solar production.
One question that I have for the community:
What is the kWh to mph charge rate? An early responder said 1.1 to 1.2 kWh per hour of charge (figuring an average of 4 miles of charge). Is this about right?
Thanks again for the responses- I realize that I probably have 12 months of wait time in front of me since I made the reservation a few days ago, but it's fun to post on here now instead of just watching. Without a reservation or a car, posting felt like I would be a fraud
Welcome, and great questions so far. The 4 miles of range can be computed. The long range model 3 has about 320 miles of range. It has a battery with 75KW capacity. Simple division shows ~4 miles per KW. This is a good weather number. Extreme cold and heat reduce range.
Each of the charge options shows a different KW per hour of charge. Someone already posted the different connection and plug options.
You can check out the price of each option for you. I went with 14-50 for my model s. It cost less than $400 for my electrician to install it. I love it.
Good luck!
eprosenx
Active Member
As you point out below, if you are trying to play "time of use" games to maximize benefit then you likely want a faster charger so you have the option to schedule your charging in a fairly short window. With a regular wall outlet you will probably just be forced to plug it in as soon as you get home even during peak time of day so you can regenerate enough by the next day.
Back to a previous posters question: Is the circuit in question a 15a or a 20a circuit? (figure this out in your breaker panel) Do the outlets in the garage have the little sideways notch on the left side? If it is a 20a circuit and you don't have the notch, them swap the outlet you want to use with a 20a one (like $6 at Home Depot). That will give you a 33% (or actually slightly more due to less inefficiencies) boost in charging speed. While you have the outlet open just verify that the wire is 12 gauge and not 14 gauge (which would be for a 15a circuit).
If you are going to have someone quote major electrical work, I would highly consider just installing a HPWC. I personally want to keep my UMC in the car at all times, so that means buying another UMC for the house (limited to 32 amps) or buying the HPWC which can do 48 amps at 240v (well more than that, but the model 3 caps out there if you have the long range battery). Again, if you are playing the time of use game... The HPWC is only $200 more than the UMC FWIW. I suspect the digging is going to be the most expensive part so at least put in a big enough conduit for the future (maybe size it for up to a 100a feed).
Another question: How does power currently get to the garage? Conduit? Direct bury wire? Is there just a single circuit in the garage or more than one? It is possible there are cost effective games to be played here. If conduit, maybe new/more conductors can be pulled. Or even if it is direct buried or something perhaps the existing conductors could be re-used to make them 240v or something (which all other things equal would more than double your charge rate).
So I am lazy and don't want to deal with having to heavily plan my trips around my car. My car is a utility and I just don't want to have to think about it. But that is just me! I too have solar with the 1:1 credit here in Oregon. I have not investigated how that works if you do time of use (or even if you are allowed to do time of use with solar). Part of the issue with solar has become that it produces not at the peak of the day. Peak here in summer I think is after the sun is going down - folks get home from work and start the AC unit, cook dinner, and turn on lights. So my 1:1 credit is awesome since I can trade not-quite-peek hours for peek hour electrical power. ;-)
Good question. Note that it sounds like there are losses during charging that are somewhat fixed (running coolant pump to heat/cool battery, running heating coils in motor, fans, etc...) so the lower speed charge options are less efficient since you have these losses either way. On higher power charging circuits they become more negligible relative to the overall charge current.
Glamisduner
Active Member
My Dryer outlet is a NEMA 10-30. It has no ground. The breaker it is attached to are linked 20 amp breakers. Aren't these supposed to be 30s?
Crap we have been running our dryer off this since we moved in 8 years ago. It's never tripped the breaker but I'm pretty sure the wiring and breaker should be rated for 30 amp.
We even had our panel re-done, I think the guy just replaced with whatever was there before, or else maybe he screwed up by putting in the wrong breaker... I don't know It was like 5 years ago.
Crap we have been running our dryer off this since we moved in 8 years ago. It's never tripped the breaker but I'm pretty sure the wiring and breaker should be rated for 30 amp.
We even had our panel re-done, I think the guy just replaced with whatever was there before, or else maybe he screwed up by putting in the wrong breaker... I don't know
It was like 5 years ago.
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eprosenx
Active Member
Can you take pictures of the conduit ends and panel and post them here? You might be able to pull thicker conductors into the existing conduit. Also, I would be kind of surprised if it was only a 15 amp circuit. I thought garages and outbuildings were supposed to be 20a circuits (even if they only have 15a plugs on them) but don't quote me on that. I would have to go dig through the code.
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eprosenx
Active Member
Hrm, yeah, that does not sound good. Though it may be code compliant since I think the code only says the receptacle has to be an equal or higher rating than the circuit. Though really don't quote me on that. Dryers may be required to be 30a circuits anyway.
NEMA 10-30 was allowed back in the day so while not up to modern code, it was allowed. I would check the details on what kind of wire is installed (gauge, whether it is copper or aluminum, what kind of sheathing it has, how many conductors, etc...) Depending on what you have you may be allowed to convert it to a modern dryer plug.
Are you trying to charge a Tesla off of this I assume? Would you unplug the dryer every time you wanted to charge the car? I know they sell switchover type units... (Dryer Buddy?)
timk225
Active Member
10-30 has a ground. It does not have a neutral. And it should have a double pole 30A breaker on 10 gauge wire, not 2 separate 20s. If one breaker trips, the other can keep sending power, and that's bad.
So yes although we are just Tesla wannabe's. (Can't afford one). We have two EVSE's. One is 240 volt 10 KW in the garage (one car garage) and the other is a 120 volt 8 or 12 amp (selectable) that is hooked up to the Christmas light plug. Surprisingly we do probably half our charging with it as Angelas electric smart car is a convertible and quite often has the top down so it goes in the garage at night. Works well.
Kinda all hidden from the street. Stores away nicely.
Here is the 240 juice box. It is plugged into a 25 foot 14-50 extension cord that plugs into a 14-50 plug in the garage. Handy to have the higher power...but not very often. We are 5 minutes from a fast charger so never a panic.
eprosenx
Active Member
What model of EVSE is that (the one up near the ceiling?)
Also, I suspect your Leaf uses less power per mile than a Tesla, and since it has a smaller battery to begin with, there is a better chance of a full charge overnight on a 15a 120v circuit. The Tesla may take longer per hour of range regenerated I assume?
eprosenx
Active Member
Glamisduner is correct. 10-30 has no ground. It has three pins. Hot - Hot - Neutral. The Tesla does not need a neutral for anything and so it flows no current over that third pin. I am guessing (though not 100% sure) that the Tesla just basically uses the neutral pin on that connector as if it was a ground.
Fundamentally, neutral and ground are tied together (in a proper electrical system) back at only one single place - at the service entrance for the building. In most residential cases, you have a single main electrical panel and in it there are neutral and ground bus bars but they are connected together. So whether you run back to this box on a green coated wire, or a white coated wire, or a bare copper wire it all achieves the same function.
I think the reason 10-30 plugs are considered dangerous today is because a dryer (which has both 120v and 240v devices inside it) has to either A) Not have a grounded enclosure, or B) Tie the neutral to the frame of the washer. So if that neutral wire somehow becomes disconnected, you get HOT power voltages on the frame of the washer, OR if you don't ground the frame and a hot wire comes loose, it energizes the frame without causing a short circuit and tripping the breaker.
When you have a device that has no 120v connections to the neutral I am guessing that perhaps it is just safe to instead use that neutral conductor as a ground. I believe the Tesla UMC (and the wall connector?) check the ground to make sure it is connected (by measuring voltage from hot to ground) before they will turn on the power to a car.
They also have built in GFCI units and so if any current "leaks" and does not go in one hot and out the other hot then they kill the power. So lots of safety features.
That is the EVSE that came with our 2015 smart car. Has a button that allows one to switch between 8 and 12 amps. Yah I don't suspect this would work for everyone. I think the upper limit it would be useful for is a 50 to 60 mile daily commute...which is more than twice as far as my commute.
I think it could work. But you'd _really_ want to be sure about your main driving.
In summer I don't think it'd be any problem.
In winter it would be more challenging, but as long as you make sure the car is well charged at the end of a weekend, you'd have enough buffer to get you comfortably through the week.
However, just getting some basic 240V charging (even at 240V x 16A) would really help make things much easier for you.
(No Tesla. My commute is 41.3 miles round trip, max speed 55mph; we have a Gen 1 Volt, which is my wife's commuter, but I occasionally get to commute in it in winter; Gen 1 Volt is not particularly efficient. I live in Central Maine which is colder than Chicago in winter).
Glamisduner
Active Member
Heat kills my gen 1 volts battery very quickly unless the engine is running
I tend to use the heated seats mostly (San Diego) unless I need to defrost.I think I need to kill the power and see if the wire is 10AWG at the outlet and at the breaker, if it is I can just replace the 2 linked brakers with a double breaker right? like this one? Siemens Two 30 Amp Single-Pole Circuit Breaker Non-Current Limiting-Q3030NC - The Home Depot. That would save a slot in my 200 amp service panel which is full.
With the 10-30 I guess this would be enough to start out with when I get a model 3? (80 mile commute) but I kind of want to get a dedicated charging outlet still eventually I think. I don't have a dryer buddy, but there's already 2 240v outlets (they are tied together). Should be ok so long as I don't charge and dry cloths at the same time?). This all assumes I have the proper wiring, I have a feeling I do not.
eprosenx
Active Member
Heat kills my gen 1 volts battery very quickly unless the engine is running
I think I need to kill the power and see if the wire is 10AWG at the outlet and at the breaker, if it is I can just replace the 2 linked brakers with a double breaker right? like this one? Siemens Two 30 Amp Single-Pole Circuit Breaker Non-Current Limiting-Q3030NC - The Home Depot. That would save a slot in my 200 amp service panel which is full.
With the 10-30 I guess this would be enough to start out with when I get a model 3? (80 mile commute) but I kind of want to get a dedicated charging outlet still eventually I think. I don't have a dryer buddy, but there's already 2 240v outlets (they are tied together). Should be ok so long as I don't charge and dry cloths at the same time?). This all assumes I have the proper wiring, I have a feeling I do not.
Yes, check on the wire gauge at both ends (just to be safe). Also check how many conductors there are. Maybe you will get lucky and there is a ground there but just not connected to the plug? You could swap to a 14-30 which is a more modern setup.
Interesting that there are two plugs? They are on the same circuit? I wonder what that was about? I am not 100% sure about what code would have to say about two plugs on the same circuit, but from a practical standpoint if you did not ever run the dryer at the same time it would work... (code generally does not want humans to have to deconflict things...)
On the breaker thing: Please post pictures of your panel. A close up of the circuit directory, of the breakers handles (so the ampacity and types are visible), plus also the sticker on the door that has all the specifications on the panel.
You need to buy the right kind of breaker that matches and is rated for use with your panel. Otherwise there is always the possibility of causing a hazardous situation.
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