Does anyone ever get rated range?

[Doug_G]

My new 100D does way better at this than my old P85. It is pretty easy to achieve rated range.

 

[GaryW]

I’ve only had my 100D for a couple of weeks. I took the car on a short road trip out to the closest supercharger last Friday. It’s about 50 miles away. Driving out I stayed in the left lane with traffic aware cruise control on. I averaged 350 Wh/mile. On the way back I stayed in the right lane with TACC, and averaged 250 Wh/mile. The speed difference was 10-12 MPH.

 

[Saghost]

I’ve only had my 100D for a couple of weeks. I took the car on a short road trip out to the closest supercharger last Friday. It’s about 50 miles away. Driving out I stayed in the left lane with traffic aware cruise control on. I averaged 350 Wh/mile. On the way back I stayed in the right lane with TACC, and averaged 250 Wh/mile. The speed difference was 10-12 MPH.

Wind and elevation changes can swing this sort of out and back testing. Slowing down certainly saves power, but that's anomalously large savings for the reported speed change .

 

[Jason S]

You guys are talking about rated range, but then using wh/mi. They are both important and related to each other. But they are not the same. My long term average consumption rate is 350 wh/mile (driving at average speeds here in southern California). But my ACTUAL range extrapolates to 200 miles. (On a Model S 90D.) I get that 350 is higher than average. But my actual range is 30% less than Rated Range. That is quite irritating. Rated Range, as a range, not a wh/mile, is greatly exaggerated.

Rated range = 300wh/mile. Even at 350 wh/m you should still get significantly more than 200 miles on a 90D when going from 100% of battery to 0%. But nobody does that, so going 90% to 20% seems about right for 200 miles.

 

[GaryW]

Wind and elevation changes can swing this sort of out and back testing. Slowing down certainly saves power, but that's anomalously large savings for the reported speed change .

The difference was more than I expected. More tests might show less difference.

 

[bsf29]

It all depends on who is driving. My wife's foot is much heavier so she rarely gets rated. I'm not in a hurry to get to the next red light/traffic jam and typically get slightly better than rated. When we 1st got Dr Manhatten, I tried to hyper mile but I quickly figured out I don't get nearly the gain as with an ICE/Hybrid/Volt. I also try not to be an ass and slow down others. When the situation calls for it I'm more than happy to step on it, but the traffic we hit has very little gain trying to stay ahead of the pack. Travel is where I'm more interested in minimizing trip time and rarely care about the extra money for fuel. We are still experimenting with speed and minimizing charging with Doc but we have not come close to rated on trips.

 

[dsnows]

With reasonably conservative driving, I get better than my rated range.

 

[Peteybabes]

Um, no.

The only way to get that range would be to hypermile (see the great record set and set again in Europe - now in excess of 500 miles from a single charge).

However, at 25 hours at 25mph, which is what they did, they’d have to charge pretty much daily.

The reality is that under real-world conditions in fairly temperate wx (SoCal), you’ll be lucky to sustain better than 30-40% loss during those city commutes over the course of a week. That’s 160-180 actual miles driven from a full charge of 264-294 rated miles.

I present this reality not to bag on the above post but to provide some semblance of accurate expectations for the veritable plethora of new Model 3 owners, many of whom are in for a rude awakening when faced with $0.20/kW costs and worse.

Put another way, it’s one thing to have zero advantage over a decent hybrid, again in practical urban use, but it’s quite another if you rely upon greatly-exaggerated claims of range when in practical fact that range won’t be there. Add actual cold weather (not SoCal cold weather) and the math gets worse.

Can rated mileage be attained? Sure - from SC to SC while transiting, say, Nebraska or Eastern Kansas. Or even through the Badlands with a tailwind - but most assuredly not with a headwind. Actually, strike that even with a tailwind as they raised the speed limit.

say what you like, a longer post doesn't mean you're right...i guess i'm just a model x driver that drives around town in a "P" model with 22" wheels thrown into the equation for worse range...

theoretical journey's won't help anybody either...and since this is in a model s forum these cars are far more efficient than an x, and i should know i've put thousands of miles on an s or 2.

at present i don't plug my car in for several days and when i do its only to 70%. i plugged in tonight with 93 miles left for rated range, not bad considering i put on 77 miles since i last charged to 70% (175 miles or so...)

 

[buttershrimp]

One of my happiest moments in my car was learning that I too can hypermile. I recently drove non-stop from Sweetwater to Santa Rosa in one sitting, uphill and against the wind! I made it 332 actual miles with 2 rated miles remaining. I highly recommend doing something stupid like this at least once... I feel like there is a lot to learn in these scenarios.

On the return trip, I learned something fascinating.... I drove really fast from sante fe to santa rosa and tucumari, but I noticed in tucumari, the car would only charge to 98%, and I didn't understand why at first.

I learned not to drive really fast on a long road trip prior to the segment you want to hypermile.... the battery was likely a little too hot to charge fully in this scenario, and also I found that hypermiling after a driving fast segment was harder because the cooling of the battery is somewhat like running the ac. So the segment of the trip where I almost got stranded was on the "safe segment" from Amarillo to Sweetwater.... my miles dropped too quickly at the end of the trip despite slowing down and I had to drive in the shoulder and then got a flat tire a few miles from sweetwater. I drove 2 actual miles with 0% battery left...

when I was 30 miles out, it seemed that I would arrive with 5-6 rated miles in the pack.... but I didn't understand the toll of the cooling system after driving fast....

 

[mblakele]

Speed kills... range.

On a day to day basis my best Wh/mi numbers happen when traffic is slow, but moving reasonably smoothly. Efficiency is worst when there's no traffic and TACC can maintain the set speed. Most days are somewhere in between.

I haven't seen a big impact from temperature, hot or cold. There's some, certainly. But I guess it doesn't get cold or hot enough around here to make a big difference.

 

[TaoJones]

say what you like, a longer post doesn't mean you're right...i guess i'm just a model x driver that drives around town in a "P" model with 22" wheels thrown into the equation for worse range...

theoretical journey's won't help anybody either...and since this is in a model s forum these cars are far more efficient than an x, and i should know i've put thousands of miles on an s or 2.

at present i don't plug my car in for several days and when i do its only to 70%. i plugged in tonight with 93 miles left for rated range, not bad considering i put on 77 miles since i last charged to 70% (175 miles or so...)

The length might not, but fortunately the content does.

Asserting that 350-500 miles of range in town (see your original post) is a reasonable expectation is ludicrous - and not in a good way. It is, however, misleading.

Prove it? Okay:

After the next time you charge to 70%, note actual miles driven and the % left when you charge up again to your 70%. Divide those actual miles driven by the % of charge used (70% - x%), then divide the resulting number by your max range (in miles).

Subtract that from 1 and the result will be the loss of efficiency from schlepping around town.

Just because it’s possible to hypermile doesn’t mean most can or will.

Disagree all you want - doesn’t make it any less so.

 

[Doug_G]

I haven't seen a big impact from temperature, hot or cold. There's some, certainly. But I guess it doesn't get cold or hot enough around here to make a big difference.

Cold has a huge impact. Range starts to drop a bit as you approach freezing. We get real winter here, with temperatures hitting -30C. Wind resistance at these temperatures will reduce range 20-25%. Heating can have a very large impact; if you don't preheat from AC power then a stone-cold car can consume upwards of 700 Wh/mile at first, until it warms up.

 

[Peteybabes]

The length might not, but fortunately the content does.

Asserting that 350-500 miles of range in town (see your original post) is a reasonable expectation is ludicrous - and not in a good way. It is, however, misleading.

Prove it? Okay:

After the next time you charge to 70%, note actual miles driven and the % left when you charge up again to your 70%. Divide those actual miles driven by the % of charge used (70% - x%), then divide the resulting number by your max range (in miles).

Subtract that from 1 and the result will be the loss of efficiency from schlepping around town.

Just because it’s possible to hypermile doesn’t mean most can or will.

Disagree all you want - doesn’t make it any less so.

i will agree with the example i gave as being extreme, but i'll still believe rated range is more than possible.

(tip toeing back to the x forums...)

 

[Saghost]

Cold has a huge impact. Range starts to drop a bit as you approach freezing. We get real winter here, with temperatures hitting -30C. Wind resistance at these temperatures will reduce range 20-25%. Heating can have a very large impact; if you don't preheat from AC power then a stone-cold car can consume upwards of 700 Wh/mile at first, until it warms up.

I don't have your level of cold down here, but I still think there's a big distinction to be drawn:

A cold soaked battery pack really sucks, and has a big impact. There's less chemical energy available, there's a big draw to heat the pack and another big draw to heat the car, along with the higher loads from the cold weather (higher rolling resistance from cold tires and fluids, higher air resistance from thick cold air.)

With a warm pack and warm cabin, there's still an impact from the higher loads, but it doesn't seem to be terribly severe in freezing weather - maybe 10-15% at 10-30F (Not sure how much worse it gets in your "real winter" with a warm pack and cabin - assuming you can get a warm pack up there at some point.)

 

[buttershrimp]

I don't have your level of cold down here, but I still think there's a big distinction to be drawn:

A cold soaked battery pack really sucks, and has a big impact. There's less chemical energy available, there's a big draw to heat the pack and another big draw to heat the car, along with the higher loads from the cold weather (higher rolling resistance from cold tires and fluids, higher air resistance from thick cold air.)

With a warm pack and warm cabin, there's still an impact from the higher loads, but it doesn't seem to be terribly severe in freezing weather - maybe 10-15% at 10-30F (Not sure how much worse it gets in your "real winter" with a warm pack and cabin - assuming you can get a warm pack up there at some point.)

By the way, could you explain something for me? I'm curious why is the rolling resistance lower in warm weather? Is this related to tire pressure? I assumed if pressure was slightly higher than normal in a cold tire, it might be stiffer and less sticky than on a hot road at the same pressure?

 

[Saghost]

By the way, could you explain something for me? I'm curious why is the rolling resistance lower in warm weather? Is this related to tire pressure? I assumed if pressure was slightly higher than normal in a cold tire, it might be stiffer and less sticky than on a hot road at the same pressure?

"Rolling resistance" is a bucket we put an entire category of loads into - anything that scales with speed so it's a fairly consistent cost per mile. One of those many factors is friction losses in the "transmission" (the differential and reduction gearing) which of course goes down because the fluid becomes thinner/less viscous. That's the main one I was thinking of when I commented on the higher rolling resistance in the cold.

I'm not quite sure how the rubber part will play out - the rubber becomes more flexible at higher temperatures, but it also flexes more... I don't have any data handy to tell me how the rolling resistance of the tires themselves changes with temperature when all other factors are equal.

(Of course, in a typical car, they aren't equal - most folks don't adjust the tire pressure to match the daily temperature, so on warmer days/times of day they tend to have more pressure in the tires, which lowers rolling resistance because the tires flex less...)

 

[xyeahtony]

people beat the rated range all the time. hypermillers even got a S100D to 1000km i believe (however many miles that is, deff more than 335 for sure)

 

[Doug_G]

A cold soaked battery pack really sucks, and has a big impact. There's less chemical energy available, there's a big draw to heat the pack and another big draw to heat the car, along with the higher loads from the cold weather (higher rolling resistance from cold tires and fluids, higher air resistance from thick cold air.)

The energy that you "lose" when the pack is cold comes back when it's warmer. That is NOT a big factor. The HUGE issue is the heat required to warm up the pack and the cabin. At full power, the pack heater and cabin heater combine for about 11 kW. So when you first power up you have the energy draw of going 50 mph, when you're not even moving. If the car is thoroughly cold-soaked it can take 30-45 minutes for it to fully warm up. That sucks up a lot of range.

My worst-case power draw I've ever experienced came from doing Christmas shopping at -30C. Drive for 20-30 minutes, cold soak for a couple of hours, lather rinse repeat. I used 2/3 of a pack and only drove a relatively short distance.

Conversely, when the pack and cabin is nicely warmed up prior to heading out, the additional power loss due to the cold is more modest - but still significant. Rolling resistance really isn't the issue, it's the aerodynamic resistance that's the big range killer.

With a warm pack and warm cabin, there's still an impact from the higher loads, but it doesn't seem to be terribly severe in freezing weather - maybe 10-15% at 10-30F (Not sure how much worse it gets in your "real winter" with a warm pack and cabin - assuming you can get a warm pack up there at some point.)

Fully warmed up, in extreme cold, you can still lose 20% or more.

 

[Bullet1]

My lifetime average is a little above rated but its easy for me to beat rated in good conditions. I remember working out rated was 159wh/km in my 75D but this could be different in other countries?

My lifetime average has just dropped to 167wh/km

 

[David99]

I learned not to drive really fast on a long road trip prior to the segment you want to hypermile.... the battery was likely a little too hot to charge fully in this scenario, and also I found that hypermiling after a driving fast segment was harder because the cooling of the battery is somewhat like running the ac.

It's a an interesting thought but not true. I have been monitoring the battery temperature over more than a year and over more than 40k miles on my Model S. The battery does not get too warm to fully charge. Especially when you Supercharge to a high level, the battery gets cooled down significantly. Supercharging triggers strong battery cooling. In hot climates on road trips I found that when I charged to around 80% the battery temperature actually ended up being lower than ambient temperature when I was done charging.

The battery will be cooled by the AC when it reaches a very high temperature, but that is a very rare case and hard to do on public roads.