Does anyone know the hardware differences between the P3D and 3D?

[brianman]

Let’s establish some undisputed facts:
1.) Motors are the same between AWD and P (known at this time)
...

Valiant attempt but it's difficult to state as "fact" when the definition of "same" is apparently part of the argument.

I order a box of pencils. Are all the pencils inside the "same"? Some say yes, some would say no. Are they equivalent? Many would say yes, some would say "maybe". The maybe people start talking how the graphite composition may be inconsistent in the batch, or the wood that year had significant variation, etc.

 

[diamond.g]

Is it possible that the AWD rear units are what will be used in the SR Model 3?

 

[adaptabl]

Total and utter BS.

Anyone who has ever built 'the same thing' in more than one sample, knows he did not built them exactly the same.
No two engines nor motors are really the same.
They are built against the same specification within a set of tolerances i.e. max allowed deviations from specification.

The most critical aspect of electric motor is its resistance and/or impedance. Again, no two motors built to the same specs end up having exactly the same resistance, some get a bit higher than most, some get a bit lower than most, the most get something in between.
If you measure every single unit and single out the ones with lowest resistance, you can pump more current through them, producing more torque and power with same heat output as those other with higher resistance.

Voila - lot sorting of "same HW", that is not the same. The P motor got built to the same specs but ended better than usual.

If Tesla's mass production is any good. The defence should be non material to production. Although there may be some very minor differences, the engineering processes should result in virtually identical specs on finished parts.

 

[Knightshade]

Is it possible that the AWD rear units are what will be used in the SR Model 3?

Sure.

It's also possible that the SR model 3 uses the same rear unit as the LR model 3 and the software just changes the values for battery draw.

That would again make things WAY easier and simpler from a manufacturing, logistics, supply chain, and repair perspective

 

[diamond.g]

Or better yet, Why do the AWD and P AWD Model 3 variants use the same B (8th ? position) in the VIN. Shouldn't they be different if the motors are different?

 

[Uncle Paul]

It may also be that Tesla has designed additional cooling for their High Performance models. Would enable additional performance, and for a longer time.

Typically performance variants from other manufacturers entail more than just a more powerful motor. They are sold as a package.

Some customers simply turn up the boost on their turbo chargers. While this will make their cars faster, it opens up a whole can of worms.

Same with overclocking a computer chip. You soon need additional cooling etc.

"The candle that burns brightly...burns briefly."

 

[MXWing]

Valiant attempt but it's difficult to state as "fact" when the definition of "same" is apparently part of the argument.

I order a box of pencils. Are all the pencils inside the "same"? Some say yes, some would say no. Are they equivalent? Many would say yes, some would say "maybe". The maybe people start talking how the graphite composition may be inconsistent in the batch, or the wood that year had significant variation, etc.

Elon himself said they were the same. His only caveat was extra burn in time. That still "implies" they are fungible.

Unless somehow after a certain process, they reclassify motors as P and give them a different part number.

If the above is done, it's distinctive enough to not be the "same".

If I need to warranty my P Model 3, do they give me any motor as a replacement or a special P-motor part? It would be a good thing to confirm.

 

[brianman]

Elon himself said they were the same.

Do you have the quote handy? I keep losing track of it.

 

[brianman]

Unless somehow after a certain process, they reclassify motors as P and give them a different part number.
If the above is done, it's distinctive enough to not be the "same".

Labelling isn't required to make two items different. It might be common, or recommend practice. But if someone doesn't put a label on an apple to tell you its not an orange, that doesn't make them the same.

 

[brianman]

If I need to warranty my P Model 3, do they give me any motor as a replacement or a special P-motor part? It would be a good thing to confirm.

Now that is a very good question and a legitimate concern for service of the motors of a performance 3.

With the P90D, we saw examples where they replaced a battery with a "downgrade" (V3 to < V3) even though they did have different part numbers. So even part numbers don't necessarily save/protect you.

 

[MXWing]

Labelling isn't required to make two items different. It might be common, or recommend practice. But if someone doesn't put a label on an apple to tell you its not an orange, that doesn't make them the same.

You have to label it, because how else would Tesla know how to replace my P3 motor with a unit that is "sorted for highest sigma output & get double the burn-in"?

Requested quote below - there might be more.. but this is the one I recall.

 

[WarpedOne]

I order a box of pencils. Are all the pencils inside the "same"? Some say yes, some would say no. Are they equivalent? Many would say yes, some would say "maybe". The maybe people start talking how the graphite composition may be inconsistent in the batch, or the wood that year had significant variation, etc.

Nice try but not really on the point.

The point is there is only one production spec for the motors.
There is not a production line producing RWD motors and a different line producing AWD and a third line P-RWD motors.
Nor does 'Tesla' say now I will produce a RWD motor, now I will produce AWD motor, now I will build one for P-RWD.

The motor is produced, it is put on the bench, measured, tested and then Tesla says "We have one for P!" or "This one will be fine in RWD" or "no worries, we have AWD where this one unit will do just fine".

They may also find units that could only be used as paperweights...

 

[MXWing]

They may also find units that could only be used as paperweights...

I would love a discard motor to build a Go-kart out of. Any idea how to get one?

 

[WarpedOne]

Go stand in line!

 

[brianman]

...

I'm not seeing the word "same" in that quote, which I thought was what you said he said.

Elon himself said they were the same.

 

[brianman]

Nice try but not really on the point.
...
The motor is produced, it is put on the bench, measured, tested and then Tesla says "We have one for P!" or "This one will be fine in RWD" or "no worries, we have AWD where this one unit will do just fine".

They may also find units that could only be used as paperweights...

Disagree. It's exactly the point.

Sounds very similar to Intel's binning process. Are you saying that's bunk as well and they're just the "same" even though Intel packages and sells the high performing separately from the low performing?

It seems pretty clear to me where the two camps are and why they disagree. I'm not really in either camp, but I find it somewhat odd that people aren't understanding each other at this point.

 

[Quickturtle]

All, I just want to remind you that according to the EPA, the rear motor or the RWD version has been rated for the same 211kW output as the supposedly "binned" rear motor of the performance version. Since that RWD motor has been in production and put into cars for over a year now (and what did they do with all the motors that didn't make the cut?), the whole binning idea just doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[Knightshade]

The motor is produced, it is put on the bench, measured, tested and then Tesla says "We have one for P!" or "This one will be fine in RWD" or "no worries, we have AWD where this one unit will do just fine".

According to Elons tweet, they're actually sorted at the drive unit level- not the motor level.

Probably because there's not enough difference between the motors themselves to matter to anybody- they either work or they don't. It's the entire assembly that is lot sorted.

The "best" ones go in Ps. The rest go in RWD and AWD cars, with 0 evidence that there's any difference (or that the "best" ones are really significantly better so far)


Knowing the part numbers would indeed be a major clue.

If all rears only have 1 part number then we know there's no real world difference between em. If there's 2, or 3, PNs, then possibly there is one.

Ditto for there being one, or two, PNs for the front unit.

 

[ulrichw]

Labelling isn't required to make two items different. It might be common, or recommend practice. But if someone doesn't put a label on an apple to tell you its not an orange, that doesn't make them the same.

While you are generally correct, you may not be specifically correct about the VIN format, as it is subject to regulation - the VIN format for the US is defined in 49 CFR 565. (https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2011-title49-vol6/pdf/CFR-2011-title49-vol6-part565.pdf)

Here's an excerpt: "The second section shall consist of five characters, which occupy positions four through eight (4–8) in the VIN. This section shall uniquely identify the attributes of the vehicle as specified in Table I."

I take the "uniquely identify" to mean that they may not use the same letter for two different configurations (as specified in Table I). "Engine type" is one of the characteristics included in Table I and presumably maps to motor types in an EV.

 

[brianman]

Here's an excerpt: "The second section shall consist of five characters, which occupy positions four through eight (4–8) in the VIN. This section shall uniquely identify the attributes of the vehicle as specified in Table I."

I take the "uniquely identify" to mean that they may not use the same letter for two different configurations (as specified in Table I). "Engine type" is one of the characteristics included in Table I and presumably maps to motor types in an EV.

When it comes to Tesla (Roadster, Model S, Model X, Model 3), 5 characters is not enough to accomplish the underlined task so that's already a lost cause no matter what document you're talking about.

As an example, when they stopped including the reinforced rear or the Model S when the kid seats were not ordered there was no updating the VIN encoding scheme to differentiate between the original reinforced chassis and the newer non-reinforced chassis.