Does FSD = hardware upgrades for the life of the car?

[Knightshade]

I am not factually incorrect! You need to be able to drive in all weathers just like a human in order to be FSD. If the system is worse than a human then it is no use, it would be more dangerous than a human if conditions change. So Level 5 is required for FSD.

That is entirely untrue of course.

Seems there's 2 folks who need to go re-read the SAE level definitions.

L4 does not require a human in the car at all. But could (for example) only work in specific weather.

That is in fact exactly Waymos situation. They have driverless L4 Robotaxis- but they currently only pick up public passengers in a place in Arizona where there's nearly perfect weather all the time.


On top of that, Tesla themselves only ever promised L4 to the pre-3/19 folks.

You can scroll back and read their exact wording that makes it crystal clear that even that version of FSD was never intended to work EVERYWHERE in ALL conditions.

 

[trm2]

I purchased (right there on my receipt) Enhanced AutoPilot + Full Self-Driving Capability. Perhaps that is the biggest differentiator.

 

[Florafauna]

Interesting discussion if a bit heated!

As far as I'm concerned, I paid for a car that is FSD capable. Obviously that is sometime in the future, with software improvements.

As far as some of you are concerned, once I get the features listed on the website, then software updates with new features for FSD will cease. Is that correct?
By the way, when I bought the car (NOV 19) I'm pretty sure the Urban Street capability wasn't listed. Since I apparently didn't pay for that, does that mean I won't get that update?

If so why and how would my FSD be worth as much as Elon is suggesting?

Elon Musk
@elonmusk
·
May 19

The FSD price will continue to rise as the software gets closer to full self-driving capability with regulatory approval. It that point, the value of FSD is probably somewhere in excess of $100,000.

 

[CertLive]

That is entirely untrue of course.

Seems there's 2 folks who need to go re-read the SAE level definitions.

L4 does not require a human in the car at all. But could (for example) only work in specific weather.

That is in fact exactly Waymos situation. They have driverless L4 Robotaxis- but they currently only pick up public passengers in a place in Arizona where there's nearly perfect weather all the time.


On top of that, Tesla themselves only ever promised L4 to the pre-3/19 folks.

You can scroll back and read their exact wording that makes it crystal clear that even that version of FSD was never intended to work EVERYWHERE in ALL conditions.

Wrong level 5 requires it works in all weather conditions. This would then me the same level as a human as we drive in all those conditions where AI currently are unable. So this is FSD. I am afraid a system that has to stop because of heavy rain, fog or snow would be quite useless in a lot of situations. However if its level 5 and can see in the dark and through these conditions then it is better than a human. This is level 5. How much do you want to water it down?

As in photo.

 

[CertLive]

The problem is weather and road conditions like pot holes and other random hazards at the moment block sensors used so unless at level 4 the car was to just pull over and say we will just wait here until I can see again. This would require you to get involved. Thus not FSD but still partial.

 

[Knightshade]

Wrong level 5 requires it works in all weather conditions

Except- not wrong- because I said level 4 does not have to work in all weather.

You don't read so good.

So this is FSD

FSD is not defined by the SAE.

It's the name used for a specific product sold by Tesla.

It's whatever Tesla says it is.

And it's been defined at least 3 different ways (and thus is kind of 3 different products all sold under the same name).

The HIGHEST level of autonomy ANY of those sales descriptions laid out matches with L4, not L5, as already explained to you, and as TESLA told you in their own words.

full self-driving in almost all circumstances

Almost all. Not all. So L4.

So "except in heavy snow" could be a circumstance it won't work in. We won't know the specifics until theyr'e done- but they make it clear that it's not intended to work in all circumstances.

That's from the pre-3/19 definition of what they sold FSD as.

The post 3/19 versions never promise anything better than L2 as exhaustively discussed already.

 

[Knightshade]

As far as some of you are concerned, once I get the features listed on the website, then software updates with new features for FSD will cease. Is that correct?

No.

Literally nobody has claimed anything of the sort- though John5520 seems to keep pretending someone has.


Instead the point being made is everyone who purchased once they narrowed the promised features in March 2019 is not entitled to more than they were promised.

If Tesla CAN deliver more, they absolutely will, to everyone who bought FSD.


But if it turns out Tesla [B}can't[/B] deliver more, they don't owe those buyers any compensation.

While they WOULD owe the pre-3/19 buyers something since those people were promised more during their purchase.

 

[john5520]

Factually wrong.

It described L4.

You appear to remain confused about what the different levels actually mean.

Neither 4 nor 5 "require" someone in the drivers seat, but that's not the distinguishing feature of either. An L4 or L5 car WITH someone in that seat is still L4 or L5.

Maybe go back and learn what the levels actually mean before trying to understand what Tesla was selling when?

If Tesla was claiming L4, then their cars would have to be capable of driverless operation, It's one of the MAJOR differences between L4 and L3. If the car requires a driver in the seat, then it is NOT L4 capable.

And no where in that description does it say a driver is NOT required. More proof you don't seem to read carefully or even understand what you're reading.

Again- the L2 system has evolved lots of times. I even gave examples.

It remains L2 though

"future updates" do not guarantee vastly higher levels of autonomy.

You're once again making up nonsense stated nowhere on the sales page.

Autosteer on city streets isn't even completed yet, but you KNOW it's going to end up being L2? Well, since you can see into the future, maybe you can tell us if you ever received compensation or not? Did you get HW4? Was there even HW4?

You need to take your own advice.

First, you're factually wrong about Waymo doing L3. Their only public service is L4.

OH boy!! You really got me on that one!! Ok, I'll correct myself, Waymo did L3 and now they're doing L4.

Second- Waymo does not sell any feature called autosteer, so your entire premise again appears to be "nonsense you made up in your imagination you want to be true but can't support with facts"

You seem intent on digging a deep hole for yourself. This is not even worth replying to.

So when they promise "autosteer on city streets" you have to apply their own definition of the feature (which again is L2) to conclude what level they're promising to deliver.

I don't. But you do, else your pointless argument will fall apart.....yet again.

 

[john5520]

Almost all. Not all. So L4.

You keep making this false claim. L4 is driverless capable. Show me where Tesla made that claim in the description you posted.

 

[Knightshade]

You keep making this false claim

No, I don't.

I'm literally quoting Teslas own words, that I have shown you with a picture

The only false claim is yours here.

Yo
. L4 is driverless capable. Show me where Tesla made that claim in the description you posted.

I did. With a picture even.

I can show it to you. I can't understand it for you.

Again-
L4 does not care, either way, about someone sitting in the drivers seat.

it's not relevant in any way to if it's L4 or not.

If you sit in the drivers seat of an L4 Waymo robotaxi it doesn't magically stop being L4.

Go back and read he pre-3/19 description of FSD.

It's describing an L4 self driving system. Pretty clearly too.

The system is designed to be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver's seat

That is by definition at least L4.

L2 requires active participation by the person in the drivers seat at all times.

L3 requires the person in the drivers seat to be prepared to take back over from the car on short notice at any time DURING the drive- ie it may always REQUIRE ACTION from them.

Only L4 and above never require any action from the person in the drivers seat (if there is one)

And we further know it's not L5, because it specifies it can do this in 'almost' all circumstances. L5 requires all.

Thus- L4.

By definition.

Where specifically did you get lost THIS time?

 

[john5520]

I did. With a picture even.

I can show it to you. I can't understand it for you.

Again-
L4 does not care, either way, about someone sitting in the drivers seat.

This is true, but that's not even the point I was making. You're going off in a another tangent, as usual.

If Tesla could not say their cars would be driverless capable in that description (which they didn't), then they're not true L4. Waymo's L4 cars are.

When and If Tesla's cars can function as true driverless vehicles as in the Robotaxis Elon promised, then they will be true L4. There's a reason why driverless is mentioned as an example in the official SAE definition.

That is by definition at least L4.

L3 vehicles can conduct long and short trips with no action from the driver. Sure, If action is required, they have to take over, but that's only if it's required. It may never be required for many trips, long and short. Their statement was rather vague overall, probably on purpose.

This is more along the lines of L4:

The system is designed to be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action EVER required by the person in the driver's seat

You yourself said it:

Only L4 and above never require any action from the person in the drivers seat (if there is one)

L3 requires the person in the drivers seat to be prepared to take back over from the car on short notice at any time DURING the drive- ie it may always REQUIRE ACTION from them.

Or it may never require action during a long or short trip. Depends on the situation.




.

 

[Knightshade]

This is true, but that's not even the point I was making. You're going off in a another tangent, as usual.

no, I'm directly correcting your own inaccurate words using the actual words from SAE and Tesla. As usual

If Tesla could not say their cars would be driverless capable in that description (which they didn't)

See, here again basic english fails you.

You confuse "could not say" with "did not say"

You ALSO confuse "does not need a driver" with "can't HAVE a driver"


In both cases you get the facts exactly backward.

The fact Tesla does say that no action of any kind is EVER required of the person in the driver seat tells you it's at least L4.

because all levels below that sometimes require action from someone in the drivers seat.

Only L4 and L5 [B}do not[/B]

If there's actually someone sitting in the drivers seat of an L4 or L5 car makes no difference of any kind to the SAE level.

They're not required to DO anything. They're welcome to sit there and watch and enjoy the ride of course. Which is exactly what Tesla describes the person in that seat doing in the level 4 car they describe by pointing out [B}no action is ever required[/B] of them while the car drives them someplace.

Waymo's L4 cars are.

And remain so even with someone sitting in the drivers seat

Because sitting someone there, who is never required to do anything doesn't change the SAE level.

When and If Tesla's cars can function as true driverless vehicles as in the Robotaxis Elon promised, then they will be true L4

Which would match the description in the pre 3/19 sales page.

In fact- that picture I showed you from Tesla also mentions this explicitly saying for the pre-3/19 version:

using a self-driving Tesla for car sharing and ride hailing...

Which, again, is at least L4.

The only reason we know it's 4, not 5, is the "almost all circumstances" remark.

. There's a reason why driverless is mentioned as an example in the official SAE definition.

I guess you missed where they explicitly do mention the person in the drivers seat for L4 and L5.

Which matches Teslas own wording EXACTLY.

It points out the person can be seated "in the drivers seat" but they "will not require" them to do anything.

For L4 and L5.

Which is literally what Tesla wrote in the pre-3/19 description.


Note the parts highlighted in red that show once again your claims are directly the opposite of the facts:

L3 vehicles can conduct long and short trips with no action from the driver

Nope.

Again see above. They can only work under limited conditions and require the driver to drive when requested.

In an L4 car you can take a nap while being in the drivers seat

Guess why? Because no action is ever required of you just like Tesla said.

in an L3 car you can not sleep because you must be available to take action and drive

. Sure, If action is required, they have to take over, but that's only if it's required.

That is literally the difference

In L4 it's NEVER required.

In L3 it CAN be.

Tesla explicitly says no action is ever required.

That's L4 or higher.

BY DEFINITION.[/QUOTE]

 

[john5520]

The fact Tesla does say that no action of any kind is EVER required of the person in the driver seat tells you it's at least L4.

Except, they did not say that. I specifically pointed out that the word EVER is absent in their statement.

Which would match the description in the pre 3/19 sales page.

In fact- that picture I showed you from Tesla also mentions this explicitly saying for the pre-3/19 version:

Yes, and Elon is still mentioning it:

Tesla robo-taxi release date: Elon Musk outlines 3-step plan

So we ALL share that promise, not just the early FSD purchasers

And it has never been an explicit part of the featureset then or now.

I guess you missed where they explicitly do mention the person in the drivers seat for L4 and L5.

Which matches Teslas own wording EXACTLY.

I guess you missed the part where I never said a person can’t be in the driver’s seat.

And the SAE went even further with examples of what they consider to be L4. Which is very significant as it demonstrates the high level of automation required.

Nope.

Again see above. They can only work under limited conditions and require the driver to drive when requested.

L4 works under limited conditions as well.

That is literally the difference

Being able to take a nap is never mentioned anywhere in that description. Tesla mentioned taking long and short trips with no driver intervention required. L3 can do that. Not in every situation, but it can. And Tesla did not use the words ‘never’ or ‘ever’ anywhere with regards to driver intervention.

Tesla explicitly says no action is ever required..

Except Tesla never said that. You keep throwing in the word ‘ever’ which isn’t mentioned at all. Their statement, like I said before, was somewhat vaque.

 

[Knightshade]

Except, they did not say that. I specifically pointed out that the word EVER is absent in their statement.

No action is required by the person in the drivers seat. Period. End of sentence.

They don't say "SOME action MAY be required"

Which is what L3 would be.

They say NONE IS REQUIRED.

Which word specifically do you not understand?

Yes, and Elon is still mentioning it:

Tesla robo-taxi release date: Elon Musk outlines 3-step plan

So we ALL share that promise, not just the early FSD purchasers

Again this is flatly, factually, legally, and obviously wrong.

Why has been explained to you about 73 times by half a dozen different people, so scroll back for that.

I guess you missed the part where I never said a person can’t be in the driver’s seat.

You said DRIVERLESS WAS WHAT L4 WAS and made a huge deal out of how if it was REALLY L4 IT WOULD SAY NO DRIVER IN CAR.


Until I pointed out, circling in red on the SAE doc, where you were, again, 100% factually wrong.


Again I suggest you scroll back and keep looking at it till you understand it.

And the SAE went even further with examples of what they consider to be L4. Which is very significant as it demonstrates the high level of automation required.

Yes they did.

None of those examples change the fact that what Tesla described, in writing, in the pre-3/19 FSD sales page, is level 4 driving though.

Since in that system no action is required by the person in the drivers seat.

At all.

Which isn't the case for L3 or lower. (you'll wanna look at L3 in the "What does the human in the drivers seat have to do?" row to notice how what they described can't be L3- let me know if you need THAT circled in red too)

L4 works under limited conditions as well.

But never requires the person in the drivers seat to take any action.

Exactly like Tesla described the pre-3/19 FSD.

L3 does not work like that.

Tesla mentioned taking long and short trips with no driver intervention required. L3 can do that.

Again this is factually wrong.

They did not say what you claim

They didn't say "with no driver intervention"

They said "with no action required by the person in the drivers seat"

Those are different things.

"no intervention" means "A system you sometimes HAVE TO TAKE ACTION WITH didn't require action that specific time"

"no action required" means you DON'T have to take action.

This is literally the difference between levels 3 and 4

If you take NO ACTION when an L3 car needs you to- the car fails- dangerously.

If you take NO ACTION in an L4 car the car remains safe because you're NEVER needed to take action.

Again as explained you over and over again- seemingly to no avail.

Except Tesla never said that. You keep throwing in the word ‘ever’ which isn’t mentioned at all. Their statement, like I said before, was somewhat vaque.

I admire the tenacity with which you refuse to understand basic English.

 

[john5520]

No action is required by the person in the drivers seat. Period. End of sentence.

They don't say "SOME action MAY be required"

Which is what L3 would be.

They say NONE IS REQUIRED.

Which word specifically do you not understand?

The statement is still too imprecise and unspecific to be considered a definite description of L4. And I already outlined the reason.

Again this is flatly, factually, legally, and obviously wrong.

Actually, no it's not. Your picture proved that. Thanks for posting it. All they really did was take the L3 description in the old FSD picture and moved it to the a more visible area of the website and tweaked it a bit so it's less vague and more forward looking.

Full Self-Driving Hardware
Every new Model 3 comes standard with advanced hardware capable of providing Autopilot features today, and full self-driving capabilities in the future—through software updates designed to improve functionality over time.

The Future of Autopilot
All Tesla vehicles have the hardware needed in the future for full self-driving in almost all circumstances, at a safety level we believe will be at least twice as good as the average human driver.

Then they took the rest of the description in the old FSD picture and broke it up into the familiar features:

-Navigate on Autopilot
-Auto Lane Change
-Autopark
-Summon
-Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control
-Autosteer on city streets

All of those features would cover the majority of the old description you posted once they're updated over time.

The only thing I could not find on the current website is the Robotaxi description. But I think it's quite fair to consider Elon tweets as their official take on
that feature.

So, all Tesla did was take the picture you posted and made it more presentable rather than a big jumbled paragraph. They've made it clear what FSD was and will be, and when taken as a whole, it becomes evident that nothing has really changed except how and where the info is presented.

Apparently, to you that's a huge deal. I don't see it that way. All this stuff is clearly outlined and in writing.

If you take NO ACTION when an L3 car needs you to- the car fails- dangerously.

And if you take NO ACTION when an L3 car DOESN'T need you to, you complete the trip with no driver action required like Tesla stated.

 

[Knightshade]

The statement is still too imprecise and unspecific to be considered a definite description of L4. And I already outlined the reason.

And your reasons were repeatedly debunked as running contrary to the actual SAE definitions.

Repeating a wrong answer doesn't magically make it right.

Actually, no it's not. Your picture proved tha

Quite the opposite- even if you seem unable to understand it.

. Thanks for posting it. All they really did was take the L3 description in the old FSD picture

Which, as has been repeatedly proven to you, is actually an L4 description.

Again it's not just a river in Egypt.

L3 explicitly requires driver action at least some of the time

L4 does not.

Teslas pre-3/19 description states, clearly, the system being sold to those buyers requires NO ACTION by the person in the drivers seat.

(notice it says person- not driver- because at no point in the entire trip does an L4 system require a human to act as a driver even if there's someone sitting in that seat).

So, all Tesla did was take the picture you posted and made it more presentable

And also entirely remove all language promising your PURCHASE entitles you to at least an L4 system.

Instead it explicitly makes clear that 3/19 and later folks are buying an L2 system that MIGHT offer more someday but no guarantees.


This is the entire crux of the difference that you steadfastly refuse to accept no matter how many clue-by-fours are brought to the debate.

 

[john5520]

Instead it explicitly makes clear that 3/19 and later folks are buying an L2 system that MIGHT offer more someday but no guarantees.

You can't see into the future which invalidates your claim. Tesla explicitly stated Autosteer on city streets is upcoming, we know it's unfinished, and they made no mention of what automation level is expected.

When you can prove that you see can into the future, then we can continue this conversation. For now, making the claim that people are explicitly buying an L2 system without knowing all the details, is misleading.

 

[Knightshade]

You can't see into the future which invalidates your claim

Again you keep saying things that are factually untrue, and obviously wrong.

You CAN see the WORDS TESLA POSTS on the sales page for FSD today.

It CLEARLY TELLS YOU you are buying an L2 system today.

I don't need to see into the future- I just need to be able to read and understand English.

You seem to have a lot of trouble with that though.

. Tesla explicitly stated Autosteer on city streets is upcoming, we know it's unfinished, and they made no mention of what automation level is expected.

Autosteer already exists

It's an L2 feature. Explicitly.

The fact that later this year you will be able to use it on city streets doesn't change these facts.

Only in your imagination is this not crystal clear to anyone reading.

When you can prove that you see can into the future, then we can continue this conversation.

I predict you will continue to misunderstand basic English and simple wording and facts in the future.

For now, making the claim that people are explicitly buying an L2 system without knowing all the details, is misleading.

HEY I WAS RIGHT! SHOCKER!

 

[john5520]

The fact that later this year you will be able to use it on city streets doesn't change these facts.

Making claims about things you can't know for sure based on assumptions, doesn't make them true. But given your past history, I'm not surprised you'd attempt it anyway.

 

[Knightshade]

Making claims about things you can't know for sure, doesn't make them true.

Boy that sounds like familiar advice. Like, exactly the advice I kept giving you when you kept repeating stuff we know for a fact is wrong. Yet you keep repeating it anyway.

It's weird.

Meanwhile I just keep citing the actual written facts from Tesla proving you wrong, and you keep making up things they don't say.