TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC
Start a Discussionhttps://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/tags/

Does new Ludicrous+ update increase performance of P90DL?

Discussion in 'Model S' started by booville, Jan 16, 2017.

Tags:
  1. booville

    booville New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1
    Location:
    marlton, nj
    I know Tesla said that the new update would provide "Hardware 1" and other improvements, but I was also wondering if there's a slight increase in performance for a P90D Ludicrous? I certainly don't expect it to become a P100D but perhaps they tweaked the output a bit?
     
  2. Andyw2100

    Andyw2100 Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2014
    Messages:
    6,564
    Location:
    Ithaca, NY
    I'm pretty sure the Easter egg doesn't work on anything other than a P100DL.
     
  3. scrmn

    scrmn Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2016
    Messages:
    28
    Location:
    Southern AB, Canada
    After the latest update on a P90DL (Saturday), I tried it and got nothing after the 'warp screen'
     
    • Informative x 2
  4. Dameon

    Dameon Titanium P90DL

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    70
    Location:
    Louisiana
    The P90D and P100D should (theoretically) only differ in battery capacity, not performance. In fact, the slightly lighter 90K pack should give slightly better performance.

    Why wouldn't the P90DL benefit to the same degree as the P100DL? Is there going to be a P90DL+ firmware upgrade?
     
    • Disagree x 2
  5. Chaserr

    Chaserr Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2017
    Messages:
    165
    Location:
    Chicago
    Wouldn't the P100D by nature of physics be able to deliver more amps? That's the bottlecap on performance for our cars, aside from software limits to preserve longevity.
     
  6. Dameon

    Dameon Titanium P90DL

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    70
    Location:
    Louisiana
    So there are internal differences (wiring, controller, etc.) between the P90D and P100D? That's seems very unlikely.
     
  7. MP3Mike

    MP3Mike Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2016
    Messages:
    3,921
    Location:
    Oregon
    The main difference is that there are more cells in the battery so the battery pack can provider more power to the motors. (The motors in the P90D can draw more power than the battery pack can safely provide.)
     
  8. shokunin

    shokunin P85 & S40

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
    Messages:
    1,135
    Location:
    Irvine, CA
    There are 15+% more cells in 100 pack than 90 pack (which is more like an 85 pack). 15% more cells means 15% more power can be drawn out of the pack keeping everything else the same, more amps, more power.

    Most P90D's cant even break 11 second quarter miles, P100D's can easily do 10's. Not 10.99, but down to 10.6s.
     
  9. Dameon

    Dameon Titanium P90DL

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    70
    Location:
    Louisiana
    Gee, thanks for the basic information regarding the difference between a 100KWh battery and a 90KWh, but that wasn't my question.

    Why can't the P90DL utilize the + upgrade? The 90/100 is a capacity value, not a flow value.

    The conspiracy theory side of my brain says that the 90 would out accelerate the 100, due to the fact there are fewer cells i.e. weight, and Tesla can't have that. The logical side of my brain says there is a controller difference and maybe a higher amperage capacity wiring difference. I say "unlikely" as it wouldn't be cost effective to have two difference controllers and wiring harnesses for the same motors (again assuming they are the same motors in the 90 and 100).
     
    • Disagree x 2
  10. MP3Mike

    MP3Mike Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2016
    Messages:
    3,921
    Location:
    Oregon
    Nope, it is both, more capacity and more power flow.

    Not actual numbers but you can get the idea: If you have 1000 cells capable of 1 amp each you have a total of 1000 amps available. The 100 pack is 11.11% larger, so say it has 1111 cells, still capable of 1 amp each for a total of 1111 amps available. (And if I recall correctly the 100 pack actually has 15% more cells.)
     
    • Like x 1
  11. Dameon

    Dameon Titanium P90DL

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    70
    Location:
    Louisiana
    Assuming the cells are of the same voltage, and I'm almost certain they are, there are about 10% more cells in the 100 pack. Your understanding of voltage and amperage is not correct. Battery capacity, measured in KWh, is not related to flow rate (power), measured in amperage. You can draw the same amps against any size battery pack, the smaller packs just won't be able to supply that amperage as continuous. Again, assuming controller, wiring, etc., is all the same.

    Negative. The P90DL is validated and documented at 10.8 seconds in the 1/4 mile. The P100DL+ is validated at 10.44 seconds.
     
  12. Dameon

    Dameon Titanium P90DL

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    70
    Location:
    Louisiana
    What does Ah mean in relation to batteries?
     
  13. MP3Mike

    MP3Mike Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2016
    Messages:
    3,921
    Location:
    Oregon
    It is essentially the same as kWh. It is a measurement of energy storage capacity.

    Ah=Amp hours. The number of amps that you can draw for an hour before the battery is empty.
    kWh=kilo-watts hours. The number of kW that you can draw for an hour before the battery is empty.

    You can think of it as the number of gallons a gas tank holds when measuring gasoline.
     
  14. Dameon

    Dameon Titanium P90DL

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    70
    Location:
    Louisiana
    Exactly. That was my point.
     
  15. MP3Mike

    MP3Mike Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2016
    Messages:
    3,921
    Location:
    Oregon
    But what you are missing is that because the 100 pack has ~15% more cells than the 90 pack it can put out ~15% more kW (power) as well as storing ~15% more energy (kWh.).

    You can look at it as adding a cell is like increasing the displacement in a ICE, it gives you the ability to create/use more power.
     
  16. Dameon

    Dameon Titanium P90DL

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    70
    Location:
    Louisiana
    So back to one of my original points... the pack voltage should be different if they use 15% more cells, unless they are using different cells to build the 90 pack than the 100 pack. That wouldn't make economic sense. That means they would have to build (at least) two different cells to span the model range... 60, 75, 85, 90, 100, etc. After having built my own electric car some years back, the two factors I dealt with were voltage and amperage. Initially I used (12) 8v batteries to get a 96v pack which was the lower end of my controller. Later I moved to (10) 12v batteries to increase voltage, decrease weight and decrease range. The dynamics were difficult to quantify for obvious reasons.

    As I understand, the Model S pack voltage is 400v. Adding more of the same batteries, without changing voltage, increases capacity (range). There must be something different (special) about the 100 pack over all the others.
     
    • Disagree x 1
  17. Dameon

    Dameon Titanium P90DL

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    70
    Location:
    Louisiana
    To add some validation to that statement, the very next thread on the forum offers some insight...

    75 and 75D variants increased performance from July 1st - software and hardware improvements?

    Newer 75's got a performance upgrade. It sounds like Tesla DID change something in the battery pack and all new models are capable of increased performance after a software update.
     
  18. MP3Mike

    MP3Mike Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2016
    Messages:
    3,921
    Location:
    Oregon
    Not if they are adding the additional cells in parallel instead of series.
     
  19. shokunin

    shokunin P85 & S40

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
    Messages:
    1,135
    Location:
    Irvine, CA
    You can't draw the same amount of amps of any size pack. Power measured in kW would be a function of pack voltage * amperage from the battery. The smaller battery packs are 350v vs 400v on the larger packs. You'd have to pull 14% more amps out of the smaller pack to get the same power.

    Let's not be cherry picking numbers. There may have been ONE P90DL that has done 10.8 from TRC which had a unicorn v3 pack. Many others have not come close, especially those with v1 or v2 90kw packs.

    Newer P90DL makes 662 hp at the battery!!!
    P90D owners - anyone upset yet at the 10.9 and 20% faster to 155mph claims?
    If P90D ludicrious quater mile time is important for you, don't buy it now
    Honest P90D(L) Quarter Mile Performance

    I have yet to see a non-gutted P100DL go under 10.5. What's your source for 10.44 on a stock P100DL?
     
    • Like x 1
  20. Dameon

    Dameon Titanium P90DL

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    70
    Location:
    Louisiana
    True, but I'm not sure they would be able to do that in the space available.

    The only detailed information I can find is for the 85KWh battery pack, things may have changed since this information was shared. That pack consists of 7104 cells across 16 modules. Each cell is 3.6vdc at 3350mAh with a maximum discharge rate of 4.8A. Each module is comprised of 6 groups of 74 cells, so a group is 74 cells in series and then 6 of those groups in parallel. So 74 cells gives a voltage of 266.4vdc which means something is off, because that would result in a group voltage of 1598.4vcd which I know isn't correct.

    The math doesn't work out, but I'm backing into it. Tesla may be doing things different or sourcing parts different than what I can obtain detailed information on. Do we have any Tesla engineers here to shed some light? Is this information that Tesla is even sharing with the public?

    My point was that adding additional capacity, without adding voltage, would be difficult because of the physical limitations of space required to house another complete module.
     
    • Disagree x 1

Share This Page