So if the person pays for the option after the car is built and now the car has it but has no FSD on the invoice. Then that person trades the car in. The car still has FSD on it. I think that's when they are removing it.
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Does Tesla remove FSD from third-party dealers
- Thread starter Baxterdown
- Start date
This is my first post, but I have comments to add on this topic. I just purchased a used 2017 Tesla S 90D two weeks ago from Carvana. I did my due diligence and learned about all the options and also was aware that many cars had both FSD and EAP purchased by original owners. I also knew that any car that reverted back to Tesla's ownership (whether they sold it as a used car, or flipped it through an auction) could likely lose the FSD or EAP feature (especially auctions, though I know some they sell with FSD). I also knew how to check the software screen to see what options and enhancements were installed.
My car was NOT advertised as having EAP or FSD, but I was hopeful, since it had never been owned by Tesla (not an auction car, or never back to Tesla for a resale), it could have one of these features. So Carvana delivers the car, lets me inspect it fully, test drive it, etc. I go to the software screen and see it has EAP as the installed software. Also, the car has been used very little in the last 4 years, and it even had the original dealer sticker in the trunk showing the $5000 EAP purchase with the original sale, and it remained loaded and operational until after I bought it. I took a picture of the software screen, showing EAP and felt happy to get this added feature. I took ownership of the car, and was given the temporary registration, and executed a contract to buy it. The odometer reading was recorded on the sale document memorializing exactly how much the car was driven before ownership changed from the dealer to me. My photo of the EAP as part of the car features on the software screen shows it 20 miles after I took ownership (test drive, etc.), so the chronology of ownership is established that I purchased the car WITH EAP.
The following day I was going to test the highway portion (from entry to exit) of EAP, entered the freeway, engaged, and was not impressed. I thought this EAP just acts like a cruise control. After returning home I looked at the software screen and EAP was gone, and it just has Basic Autopilot listed. I called Tesla and complained, asking how they can remove features from a car they don't own and haven't owned since the original purchaser had it. The woman clearly said that they now remove EAP and FSD from any car purchased from a dealership. If Tesla has or has not owned it, she said that makes no difference. She said they leave the features if purchased from private sales between individuals though. I asked her how they could remove features like EAP and FSD from a car they do not own, and her reply was "that is our policy." This conversation happened on Aug 23.
Two points to make here - Point 1 - I question the legality of taking things (even software) from a car that Tesla does not own (and hasn't owned since original purchase). I believe it all hinges on the end user agreement text on the screen the first time the software was used (or purchased) - the legal agreement the original purchaser clicked/signed off on (you now, those pages of fine print most people just click OK to!). If they agreed to merely "use" the software while they owned the car then Tesla can legally take it, but if the end user agreement stipulated that the "features" stay with the car (and don't transfer with the owner) then Tesla actually committed theft by taking it away from me. Unfortunately I do not know the actual wording of the 2017 EAP software user agreement. Does anyone know where to find it?
Point 2 - I see over and over in this forum where people do not believe Tesla removes these features (EAP or FSD) from cares that were not owned by Tesla after the original owner, but they do. Their representative clearly said it is their party to remove all these features from dealership sales, period. My guess is that they started it once they started the FSD subscription model, so they could get more revenue streams from 2nd owners.
Finally, if indeed someone could get the text of the 2017 software user agreement common on EAP for Model S, and it shows the feature remains as part of the car through subsequent owners, then it may be worth it to take them to small claims court to try to recoup the $5000 (or EAP feature) since it was stolen.
So this is my first post - don't complain too much! haha
M
My car was NOT advertised as having EAP or FSD, but I was hopeful, since it had never been owned by Tesla (not an auction car, or never back to Tesla for a resale), it could have one of these features. So Carvana delivers the car, lets me inspect it fully, test drive it, etc. I go to the software screen and see it has EAP as the installed software. Also, the car has been used very little in the last 4 years, and it even had the original dealer sticker in the trunk showing the $5000 EAP purchase with the original sale, and it remained loaded and operational until after I bought it. I took a picture of the software screen, showing EAP and felt happy to get this added feature. I took ownership of the car, and was given the temporary registration, and executed a contract to buy it. The odometer reading was recorded on the sale document memorializing exactly how much the car was driven before ownership changed from the dealer to me. My photo of the EAP as part of the car features on the software screen shows it 20 miles after I took ownership (test drive, etc.), so the chronology of ownership is established that I purchased the car WITH EAP.
The following day I was going to test the highway portion (from entry to exit) of EAP, entered the freeway, engaged, and was not impressed. I thought this EAP just acts like a cruise control. After returning home I looked at the software screen and EAP was gone, and it just has Basic Autopilot listed. I called Tesla and complained, asking how they can remove features from a car they don't own and haven't owned since the original purchaser had it. The woman clearly said that they now remove EAP and FSD from any car purchased from a dealership. If Tesla has or has not owned it, she said that makes no difference. She said they leave the features if purchased from private sales between individuals though. I asked her how they could remove features like EAP and FSD from a car they do not own, and her reply was "that is our policy." This conversation happened on Aug 23.
Two points to make here - Point 1 - I question the legality of taking things (even software) from a car that Tesla does not own (and hasn't owned since original purchase). I believe it all hinges on the end user agreement text on the screen the first time the software was used (or purchased) - the legal agreement the original purchaser clicked/signed off on (you now, those pages of fine print most people just click OK to!). If they agreed to merely "use" the software while they owned the car then Tesla can legally take it, but if the end user agreement stipulated that the "features" stay with the car (and don't transfer with the owner) then Tesla actually committed theft by taking it away from me. Unfortunately I do not know the actual wording of the 2017 EAP software user agreement. Does anyone know where to find it?
Point 2 - I see over and over in this forum where people do not believe Tesla removes these features (EAP or FSD) from cares that were not owned by Tesla after the original owner, but they do. Their representative clearly said it is their party to remove all these features from dealership sales, period. My guess is that they started it once they started the FSD subscription model, so they could get more revenue streams from 2nd owners.
Finally, if indeed someone could get the text of the 2017 software user agreement common on EAP for Model S, and it shows the feature remains as part of the car through subsequent owners, then it may be worth it to take them to small claims court to try to recoup the $5000 (or EAP feature) since it was stolen.
So this is my first post - don't complain too much! haha
M
Tam
Well-Known Member
I don't think there's any written Tesla policy on software repossession that's available to owners/public. That explains all kinds of explanations from different owners to justify Tesla's "policy".
I think the Tesla lady has established Tesla's policy/practice very clearly: It owns the repossession law.
Unless someone challenges that in court, Tesla will continue to push on with the slippery practice.
My position is: Tesla has the right to take back what belongs to them but they need to go through the legal steps to do it: File the claim in court that proves it's theft due to lack of payment from any owner, original or subsequent owners.
In this case, Tesla needs to present to the court the details of the original owner receipt showing whether the EAP was paid or not.
The problem is Tesla staff also say completely the opposite. Staff you can talk to rarely understand whats going on in the mothership or what the centralised computers are doing (this happens on way more things than this).
Maybe the US is different, but I don't know how Tesla would even know if the transfer was "person to person" and not "person to dealer to person" and dealer sales here (UK) are definitely retaining EAP and FSD if the car doesn't go through Tesla in the process.
How can you be sure the car wasn't on finance from Tesla and original owner defaulted on the loan and Tesla took back possession or something along those lines? The seller seems to know it doesn't have it because they don't list it.
It's a mess for sure but so far we have the following theories:
- any dealer sale
- any tme the car passes through Teslas hands
- anytime EAP or FSD was added as a bonus, eg to staff cars or customers as compensation for something
- anytime it was bought at a discount or not at the current price
- randomly related to the position of the moon
Only one of those 5 options is legal, but nobody wants to accept it because they can't explain why they lost it.
I’m not sure that only one is legal. I doubt that for an employee using a comp EAP/FSD as part of their job, specifically where EAP/FSD was unpaid, would hold up in court for a buyer trying to keep EAP/FSD. Same for a Tesla service center loaner.
But your argument is solid, except for the moon variant which I think you should replace with software trials which we know shouldn’t transfer but could be functional when a used car is delivered.
As much as I dislike both third party dealerships and class action lawsuits, my guess is that there is neither 1) language in the user agreement that allows for Tesla to remove features nor 2) language that would allow for Tesla to discriminate between dealers and private parties nor 3) any language that treats the purchase as a subscription. Per the OP request, anyone have a copy of the click through agreement? Even a newer copy would be helpful to start.
Frankly I am shocked that neither the dealers’ associations nor the class action lawyers have taken on this issue.
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Watts_Up
Well-Known Member
I wonder how Tesla can trace if the car was sold from a reseller or from a private owner?
- 1. I wonder if Tesla count the number of transfers?
- 2. I wonder if Tesla know if there is a trade-in for sales tax purpose?
- 3. I wonder if Tesla know if the car get re-purchasing at end of a lease?
- 1. I wonder if Tesla count the number of transfers?
If so, using only private sale, would the third owner get EAP/FSD removed?
- 2. I wonder if Tesla know if there is a trade-in for sales tax purpose?
In some states (in US at least, but in some other countries also) the new owner might only pay the sale tax on the trade-in,
which is infact another way to kill the direct sale...
- 3. I wonder if Tesla know if the car get re-purchasing at end of a lease?
If the leased car had EAP/FSD, would buying the car at the end of lease would still keep the option available?
- 4. I wonder if Tesla know if the previous owner has removed the car from the Tesla account?
If so, if the car for sale is at a reseller store, would the car been transfered to the Tesla reseller account allowing using a Supercharger?
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Not yet, but I am researching the possibility. Essentially the argument will be theft. Tesla removed software (a thing of value) from property they did not own. Tesla values the software they removed at $5000 (the cost reduction for an upgrade from Enhanced Autopilot to FSD). In FL the administrative costs to bring the case will be about $400, but could be a lot more if the case is lost, as the plaintiff could have to pay the legal fees for the defendant. My hope would be that Tesla will not want to face the court case, and either put EAP back, or credit $5000 toward FSD upgrade. I'd be fine with either of those arbitration outcomes.
And there's the added complication that Tesla may say the dealer sold you something they didn't own and that your issue is with them. If they turn up at court, show the documentation of the car they sold at auction without FSD then where do you stand? The judge then gets all confused about software, updates, features that can be turned on and off over the air and I guess could go either way, but that makes it a lottery in itself.
Technically they didn't remove the software, it is still on the car. It is just the license to use that software has expired or was revoked.
Following this reasoning, I would say that either the license stays with the original owner, so he/she can transfer it to another Tesla, or that the license is transferred with the car. But if Tesla revokes the license, they are making money from nowhere by forcing people to buy several times the same thing. Someone paid for one license, that license must be usable by someone.
if the belief that I and others hold that this ONLY happens when Tesla own the car then the scenario is
- Tesla sold the original owner FSD for X, lets say back then they sold FSD for $3000
- Tesla either gets a lease return (the owner got no real benefit for optioning FSD) or buys back the car and gives the original owner an amount smaller than this in recognition, lets say $1000, (Musk did say they needed to start offering something for FSD). This is on top of the car value without FSD of say $30k.
- Tesla remove FSD and sell the car on, they're potentially out of pocket by whatever extra they gave the original owner which could be zero (lease return) or could be $1000 extra allowance (remember Tesla have been offering next to nothing for FSD so the loss here is pretty small). Either way, not much compared to what FSD would cost today.
- Tesla sell the car on and a new owner has to spend $10k for FSD. Makes perfect sense for Tesla to do this.
- New owner might buy FSD for $10k. If the AP Hardware hasn't been upgraded yet, Tesla don't need to as the car doesn't have FSD anymore.
The thing that sucks, is how long Tesla take to remove it from the car. I can't see any legal basis for Tesla stripping it for dealer sales and no dealer would want to touch a car with FSD if that was the case. More to the point, Tesla would render the resale value of FSD as ZERO and that would be a massive disincentive for anyone to pay for FSD. (As it is, the resale value is pretty low, but if you thought it was worthless, then that would hurt).
I'm of course assuming that Tesla never owns the car in the chain of ownership. If at any time Tesla owns the car, then of course they can remove FSD.
If You tend to buy a second hand Tesla from a non Tesla seller, make sure You get the original receipt on the car and proof of purchase for any add-ons that may be installed in the vehicle.
I just fell victim of a scam. I bought a Tesla model 3 SR+ with a fully functioning Enhanced Auto pilot and FSD package. ($10.000 value), but when I received the car after purchase, the EAP and FSD package was erased. Tesla claims that the installed EAP and FSD was a DEMO.
The car has been at the dealer for more than 6 weeks, (demos expire after 14 Days), but Tesla claims this was due to a software bug.
Tesla says they are not able to help.
My only chance to get my EAP and FSD back will be to to dig up the receipt, if it exists. However, not knowing who was the original buyer, I am out of luck.
I just fell victim of a scam. I bought a Tesla model 3 SR+ with a fully functioning Enhanced Auto pilot and FSD package. ($10.000 value), but when I received the car after purchase, the EAP and FSD package was erased. Tesla claims that the installed EAP and FSD was a DEMO.
The car has been at the dealer for more than 6 weeks, (demos expire after 14 Days), but Tesla claims this was due to a software bug.
Tesla says they are not able to help.
My only chance to get my EAP and FSD back will be to to dig up the receipt, if it exists. However, not knowing who was the original buyer, I am out of luck.
Sorry to hear that 
I suppose this a problem with software upgrades that can be removed deliberately or by mistake for the second hand market
The new owner by no fault of their own may not have any proof of what the vehicle should have
It more than likely is going to get worse as the cars age and pass though more and more owners hands
I guess this will get even more muddied with subscription FSD
Buyers will have to be very thorough, I imagine the trusting or unknowledgeable may get caught out
No refection on you chrisd5710 this is just my thoughts about the situation
It would be very easy to overlook this during the excitement of purchasing your dream car
Isn't it normally widely promoted when Tesla offers free demos of FSD
I may have missed it but I don't recall seeing anything recently
I suppose this a problem with software upgrades that can be removed deliberately or by mistake for the second hand market
The new owner by no fault of their own may not have any proof of what the vehicle should have
It more than likely is going to get worse as the cars age and pass though more and more owners hands
I guess this will get even more muddied with subscription FSD
Buyers will have to be very thorough, I imagine the trusting or unknowledgeable may get caught out
No refection on you chrisd5710 this is just my thoughts about the situation
It would be very easy to overlook this during the excitement of purchasing your dream car
Isn't it normally widely promoted when Tesla offers free demos of FSD
I may have missed it but I don't recall seeing anything recently
I know what the OP is talking about as I bought mine from my Mercedes dealer and they had no clue what was included with the car. I took the VIN did the research and got exactly what was advertised in the car. I bought the FSD computer recently for 1K and the 99 per month. I believe this is a new era of auto purchasing we're moving into. The problem I see is that everyone should received all features and turn them on and off as you please. Ala carte purchasing features on an ongoing basis is not only confusing but extremely costly to most.
I don't think that is true. Tesla was giving out longer, 3 months I think, trials/demos in the past.
Actually, if the dealer sold it to you with EAP/FSD listed as a feature, you should go to them to either unwind the sale or get them to pay for getting it enabled.
Hey, just checking if you have any update on this? Did you end up getting it back? Did you start going to court? Or ended up just leaving as is?
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