Does Tesla remove FSD from third-party dealers

[ehendrix]

Just FYI. Just transferred car I bought from 3rd party dealer who bought it from a private party and car had FSD. After transfer of car into my account car rebooted for config update and FSD was still there.
See https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/6227259/ for my longer post on this.

 

[FLLMAN]

Hey, just checking if you have any update on this? Did you end up getting it back? Did you start going to court? Or ended up just leaving as is?

No update. I haven't done anything. My current thinking is that Tesla will just stall and throw obstacles to eat up time and make it not worth it for me. I'll post if I change my mind.

 

[jeffro01]

I swear Tesla sits around and openly asks, "how can we be more unethical and shady?"... This is simply wrong. If the car has a feature at the time it's delivered to the original owner then it should have that throughout it's entire lifecycle. What Tesla is doing here has GOT to be illegal, to me it's fraud, but IANAL...

Jeff

 

[Krash]

..If the car has a feature at the time it's delivered to the original owner then it should have that throughout it's entire lifecycle…

This topic has been debated to death. No sense trying to change the mind of those of us who believe Tesla has the right to do as they wish to cars in their possession.

 

[HankLloydRight]

Sure, in their possession, but what about third-party dealers or even some reported private sales?

 

[Krash]

Sure, in their possession, but what about third-party dealers or even some reported private sales?

“reported” isn’t good enough for me personally. You know I’m more of a data and facts guy. Grin.

And I consider it bad form for Tesla to flag features for removal and then not firmware update the cars until later. But I’m more angry with the whiners and complainers that use the internet as a platform to get free FSD or some other feature just because they saw the feature on the lot and assumed it had been paid for. The former is sloppy but the latter is a massive and selfish waste of everyone’s time.

As for Tesla’s ability to remove Free Unlimited Supercharging (FUSC) from cars that pass through dealers, but we’re not otherwise removed by Tesla, I’m not sure that would stand up to legal scrutiny. But it might. Tesla might even be allowed to limit FUSC to one transfer on pre 2017 cars that had it. I suspect that if we ever get a ruling on that in the US it might be different than a ruling Tesla would get in other countries.

If Tesla really does illegally remove FSD from dealers’ cars, there is some sort of car dealer organization that is surely competent enough to get a copy of the original bill of sale and sue Tesla and make a media event of the results. The fact that this hasn’t happened yet makes me suspicious.

ehendrix’ case should be easy enough to traverse. Their only recourse is with their dealer, and that dealer’s recourse is with a private party. But that private party didn’t buy FSD with a suitcase of cash so there should be a receipt somewhere.

 

[jeffro01]

This topic has been debated to death. No sense trying to change the mind of those of us who believe Tesla has the right to do as they wish to cars in their possession.

Look, I get it, those who drink the kool-aid of Elon seem to think that being unethical and fraudulent is an acceptable way to do business. It's not, you're wrong but of course I can't change your mind, I just see it as a reflection of people's personal ethics if they're okay with this. Things like this are why I didn't get another Tesla and why I won't be coming back to Tesla either unless something fundamentally changes.

Jeff

 

[MP3Mike]

If the car has a feature at the time it's delivered to the original owner then it should have that throughout it's entire lifecycle

What if the feature was added after it was delivered? Does that make a difference to you?

So at no time can the owner of the vehicle remove any feature, such as:

1. Change to different wheels
2. Remove the parcel shelf
3. Remove the roof rack
4. Remove the 3rd-row seating option
5. etc.

Why should paid software features be any different than hardware features? The owner can add/remove them at will.

 

[rickybobbee]

whoever owns the vehicle has the right to remove or add features. Who would buy a car with fsd and remove it. If tesla is removing it then it's stealing. Tesla can't take payment twice for the same feature on the same vehicle.........seems pretty simple to me, am I missing something?

 

[HankLloydRight]

If Tesla really does illegally remove FSD from dealers’ cars, there is some sort of car dealer organization that is surely competent enough to get a copy of the original bill of sale and sue Tesla and make a media event of the results. The fact that this hasn’t happened yet makes me suspicious.

Because the dealers aren't incentivized to argue the case once the car is sold and off their lot.

 

[HankLloydRight]

What if the feature was added after it was delivered? Does that make a difference to you?

So at no time can the owner of the vehicle remove any feature, such as:

1. Change to different wheels
2. Remove the parcel shelf
3. Remove the roof rack
4. Remove the 3rd-row seating option
5. etc.

Why should paid software features be any different than hardware features? The owner can add/remove them at will.

That's not the scenario, though. If I'm buying a used car, and it has custom wheels, parcel shelf, roof rack, and the 3rd row seating, I'd except to have all those things upon buying the car, unless specifically excluded by the seller. If they have been previously removed by the seller, that's fine, I wouldn't be buying them or think they're included.

But what Tesla does is allow the car to be shown with the options, and then only after buying it do they sneak in and remove them. That's NOT OK. (I'm talking about third-party dealers where the car did not go through Tesla).

 

[Krash]

I’ve never been to small claims court, and my state limit is high, but I would totally file a claim if I asked the sales person if FSD came with the car and they said yes, and then later it disappeared.

I hope the dealers don’t chicken out and add language in the sales contract to say they don’t guarantee software features.

 

[jeffro01]

What if the feature was added after it was delivered? Does that make a difference to you?

So at no time can the owner of the vehicle remove any feature, such as:

1. Change to different wheels
2. Remove the parcel shelf
3. Remove the roof rack
4. Remove the 3rd-row seating option
5. etc.

Why should paid software features be any different than hardware features? The owner can add/remove them at will.

LOL... Try a better straw man argument next time please, that was weak... This isn't complicated no matter how much of a pretzel you try to twist it into.

I said TESLA... NOT THE OWNER... JFC... Once a vehicle is delivered, as has been the case since the dawn of automobile sales, the owner can do with it whatever they want so long as it's within the law (or are willing to flaunt the law). Then they can sell it and any potential buyer can decided whether they want said car with whatever the previous owner did to it. Again, not complicated.

What cannot be allowed to happen, is the manufacturer stepping in and saying "you know what, I'm going to remove the turbo from the car when you sell it because I think I can". That's absurd and that's exactly what's happening here and trying to hide it under the guise of "software" is ludicrous at best. If I buy a car and when I sign the papers the car has X features, it's flat wrong for the manufacturer to come back after the fact and remove them. If that's not fraud then I don't know what is. You can't blame the Carmax's of the world for this, they are powerless.

Tesla effectively double-dipping here is so beyond wrong it's gotta be illegal although again, for the record, IANAL...

Jeff

 

[jeffro01]

whoever owns the vehicle has the right to remove or add features. Who would buy a car with fsd and remove it. If tesla is removing it then it's stealing. Tesla can't take payment twice for the same feature on the same vehicle.........seems pretty simple to me, am I missing something?

You're not missing anything. At all. Some people just seem to think being unethical is an okay way to run a company. It's not.

Jeff

 

[Krash]

…what Tesla does is allow the car to be shown with the options, and then only after buying it do they sneak in and remove them…

“allow” is pretty strong. Tesla doesn’t always know the car is being shown. While I agree Tesla is lame for not firmware updating cars that have been modified in their possession, I don’t think Tesla has to police the FSD trials and employee cars that change hands within a certain amount of time.

 

[MP3Mike]

But what Tesla does is allow the car to be shown with the options, and then only after buying it do they sneak in and remove them. That's NOT OK. (I'm talking about third-party dealers where the car did not go through Tesla).

That isn't OK, but I don't think it is actually happening either. From what I have seen every third-party dealer vehicle that had FSD removed was purchased by the dealer from Tesla, and it was just a delay in the vehicle showing it no longer had the feature.

I haven't seen an actual confirmed case for FSD being removed from a vehicle that didn't pass through Tesla. (There was one case where the third-party dealer wouldn't tell the person where the vehicle came from and they assumed it wasn't Tesla, I assume that would have been from Tesla.)

 

[HankLloydRight]

While I agree Tesla is lame for not firmware updating cars that have been modified in their possession, I don’t think Tesla has to police the FSD trials and employee cars that change hands within a certain amount of time.

So you're asserting that every case of FSD being removed was an employee car or a FSD trial? Do (did) employees get free FSD?

I'd agree in the case of FSD trials, but isn't this thread proof enough that Tesla is removing fully-paid-for FSD from cars they didn't possess but only were sold through 3rd part dealers?

 

[MP3Mike]

Do (did) employees get free FSD?

I have seen prior Tesla employees report that they did indeed get free FSD.

 

[electrifyme]

Wow, that is pretty disgusting if they did that.. talk about trying to double dip with FSD.

 

[Krash]

…isn't this thread proof enough that Tesla is removing fully-paid-for FSD from cars they didn't possess but only were sold through 3rd part dealers?

Not proof for me. Proof for me is three exhibits: A) a copy of FSD purchase. Something like a credit card statement, invoice showing payment or other receipt. Not the Monroney window sticker; B) a demonstrated chain of ownership from that purchaser to the current owner that doesn’t include Tesla; and C) an email, text or other communication from Tesla stating that FSD doesn’t belong on the car.

So you're asserting that every case of FSD being removed was an employee car or a FSD trial?…

I think the likely reason FSD gets removed are, in order of likelihood, Tesla ownership and resale without FSD, former employee, FSD trial and Tesla error. The first three are essentially FSD has not been paid for.

And I’ll bet there are twenty people complaining publically I’m hopes they can get free FSD that wasn’t paid for every one person who gets it removed by mistake. And many of those people believe it was paid for, even though it likely wasn’t.

There is no conspiracy here. People just love a sensational story. Supposed FSD stealing gets much more traction than “Tesla didn’t give me hardly any money back for my FSD on trade in” which is both hard to prove as well as not that interesting, although to me, more telling.