Don't cancel your M3 just yet....

[WileyTheMan]

I actually think with Musk and his insane promises and demands out of the way the company would do better and perhaps even some of the key people who quit because of Musk would return. Lots of variables.

Let me switch a name in there.

I actually think with Jobs and his insane promises and demands out of the way the company would do better and perhaps even some of the key people who quit because of Jobs would return. Lots of variables.

Apple almost folded because of their decision to can him.

 

[Maximilien]

I don't see how Ford or GM can buy Tesla.
I would be appalled if that happens!

 

[T34ME]

An Ioniq with a bigger battery (due next year) could easily become the EV Camry.

It's due next year.............or the year after...............or the year after that. And if it does happen, I see the price going way up. It could just as easily NOT become the EV Camry.

It's a car, not a computer masquerading as a car, it's not a weirdmobile,

Have you seen one in person? It is the very definition of a weirdmobile, if you call a Prius Prime a weirdmobile

and compared to Model 3 it's pretty cheap: $275/month to lease the 150-mile version.

So if you don't want to brick the battery, a 150 mile range translates to a range of 90 miles for daily use. That would be $275/month for a city commuter car that has the refinements and finesse of a Spark. No fast charger network. I see it as a niche car with limited appeal.

I welcome the arrival of an Ioniq with 300 mile range, but it will never be a model 3 killer, especially with no fast charger network.

 

[N5329K]

It's due next year.............or the year after...............or the year after that. And if it does happen, I see the price going way up. It could just as easily NOT become the EV Camry.

Have you seen one in person? It is the very definition of a weirdmobile, if you call a Prius Prime a weirdmobile

So if you don't want to brick the battery, a 150 mile range translates to a range of 90 miles for daily use. That would be $275/month for a city commuter car that has the refinements and finesse of a Spark. No fast charger network. I see it as a niche car with limited appeal.

I welcome the arrival of an Ioniq with 300 mile range, but it will never be a model 3 killer, especially with no fast charger network.

You'll note that I never used the phrase "Model 3 killer." That's usually clickbait, so it's better avoided. I called it the potential "EV Camry", as in plain vanilla, low-cost electrified transportation. Which it could be.
And be careful about "brick". The last person here who used that phrase got into hot water!
As for the design, I agree. It definitely has elements I find kind of off-putting. But it's nowhere hear as weird as the new Prius, or the BMW i3. Those are textbook weirdmobiles, to me. As for timing, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Hyundai does what it says it will do, when it says it will do it. They take deadlines a bit more seriously than the company we all know and love.
Here's a review, FWIW:

Robin

 

[T34ME]

I called it the potential "EV Camry", as in plain vanilla, low-cost electrified transportation. Which it could be.....................................Here's a review, FWIW:

I try to maintain an open mind, so I watched the whole review and this is my takeaway from the Ioniq EV

1. The Cd of this car has to be lousy with the traditional grille and fake scoops on the front fascia. This is a warmed over ICE design because Hyundai is too lazy to come up with a ground breaking design.
2. The rated EPA of this car is 120 miles so that means a real world range of about 75 miles in daily driving
3. This is a compliance car. Hyundai is losing money on the $275/mo lease with unlimited miles. They can't keep that up forever.
4. The price of an Ioniq EV comparably equipped to a base model 3 is $36,000. That is $1000 more for a car with 100 miles less range.
5. The reviewer was not impressed by the performance or handling.
6. The reviewer compared the Ioniq EV with a lot of other EVs but did not compare to the model 3 because the base model 3 would have killed the others.

I want the other makers to develop a ground breaking, FUTURISTIC EV with a fast charging system comparable to the model 3. Thus far, they have shown no desire or vision to do so. They just don't get it. They will just fall further behind until they do get it.

 

[N5329K]

Actually, I believe the drag coefficient is remarkably low, given the styling. It contributes to the car being the most efficient EV out there, and helps them achieve an impressive range with what seems (to me) like a very small battery pack. The car is more efficient in energy use/mile than any Tesla, for example. And the reviewer (who was very fair, I thought) didn't compare it with Model 3 because it is not in the same market segment as Model 3. The Ioniq is not a $50,000 car. When a base Model 3 arrives then we'll see how it stacks up.
Not for everyone and not a Tesla (I found the panel very busy). But I'd call it a very strong initial effort, and a company that bears watching if you're looking for a non-luxury mass market EV.
Robin

 

[T34ME]

Actually, I believe the drag coefficient is remarkably low, given the styling.

How low is low? It is nowhere near the model 3 Cd 0.23

It contributes to the car being the most efficient EV out there, and helps them achieve an impressive range with what seems (to me) like a very small battery pack. The car is more efficient in energy use/mile than any Tesla,

The reviewer said the efficiency in energy use/mile comes via a small battery pack. He went on to say that when/if Ioniq EV comes with a 200+mi. pack, the energy use/mi will be similar to Bolt or model 3.

But I'd call it a very strong initial effort, and a company that bears watching if you're looking for a non-luxury mass market EV.

Bolt is not a strong initial effort for a non-luxury mass market EV?
What would you rather have, an entry level luxury class model 3 with 220 mile range and Super charger system for $35,000 or a non-luxury comparably equipped Ioniq EV with 120 mile range and no fast charger system for $36,000?

If you want the cheapest non-luxury EV get a Fiat 500e for $50 month lease (like my daughter did) rather than a $275 month lease Ioniq EV.

 

[N5329K]

Actually, I believe the drag coefficient is remarkably low, given the styling.
How low is low? It is nowhere near the model 3 Cd 0.23
Basically the same as a Tesla Model S.
Bolt is not a strong initial effort for a non-luxury mass market EV?
If appearances don't matter, then yes.
What would you rather have, an entry level luxury class model 3 with 220 mile range and Super charger system for $35,000 or a non-luxury comparably equipped Ioniq EV with 120 mile range and no fast charger system for $36,000?
I reserved a Model 3, and would prefer it (with a couple of beat-the-horse-extra-dead objections). But that car probably will not show up this year. You can go out and buy the Ioniq this afternoon (in California).
I'm mixed about the Supercharger advantage. On the one hand, it's a strong plus for an EV buyer with travel needs that go beyond the usual. But for someone who will use the car's range and recharge at home each night, not so much.
Robin

 

[ℬête Noire]

How low is low?

"Given the styling".

You know, like "For being a 2 month old kitten she makes a hellva point guard."

 

[N5329K]

"Given the styling".

You know, like "For being a 2 month old kitten she makes a hellva point guard."

Model S is a pretty slick car. Same CD.
Robin

 

[206er]

How low is low? It is nowhere near the model 3 Cd 0.23

The reviewer said the efficiency in energy use/mile comes via a small battery pack. He went on to say that when/if Ioniq EV comes with a 200+mi. pack, the energy use/mi will be similar to Bolt or model 3.


Bolt is not a strong initial effort for a non-luxury mass market EV?
What would you rather have, an entry level luxury class model 3 with 220 mile range and Super charger system for $35,000 or a non-luxury comparably equipped Ioniq EV with 120 mile range and no fast charger system for $36,000?

If you want the cheapest non-luxury EV get a Fiat 500e for $50 month lease (like my daughter did) rather than a $275 month lease Ioniq EV.

Your comparison offerings are interesting. Sure we're all interested in how the 3 compares to other EVs, but how does it compare to other luxury cars in its class. Having been in a $50k Model 3 for a few hours recently, if an EV isn't you're top concern, I'd almost argue that you can get more car for your money by going with a BMW 330i or Audi A4. Other than the glass roof and EV-ness of the 3, I'm not sure if the currently available variant is entirely superior to either of those cars at a similar price point. They're just nicer overall vehicles. My gut tells me that the current $50k version should've been the base version that they worked up from. We will see though.

 

[T34ME]

I'm mixed about the Supercharger advantage. On the one hand, it's a strong plus for an EV buyer with travel needs that go beyond the usual. But for someone who will use the car's range and recharge at home each night, not so much.

That's why I'm waiting for the SR version. I will charge at home each night. I will only use the Supercharger system on the occasional long trip a couple of times a year. But that advantage is huge for me.

 

[Glamisduner]

I'm strongly considering canceling my reservation. Ford is buying back my focus titanium this week and I will need transportation long before my new delivery date.

 

[T34ME]

if an EV isn't you're top concern,

An EV should be the top concern. If your main concern isn't cleaning up the damage to our air quality caused by ICE, then you are a climate denier and an EV is pointless to you.

I'd almost argue that you can get more car for your money by going with a BMW 330i or Audi A4.

Get more of what? - more buttons and dials? more air pollution? more stops at a gasoline station? more oil changes? more of what?

Other than the glass roof and EV-ness of the 3, I'm not sure if the currently available variant is entirely superior to either of those cars at a similar price point.

The superiority of the model 3 is Zero Emissions. If you want your children breathing polluted air in an environment with greater swings in climate extremes, that is up to you. Elon is not really in the automobile or solar panel business, he is in the changing lifestyles for healthier living business. The BMW 330i and Audi A4 are not in the healthier living business. They are in the keep the public tied to big oil business.

They're just nicer overall vehicles.

Nicer in what way that provides a healthier future for your children?

My gut tells me that the current $50k version should've been the base version that they worked up from. We will see though.

People are complaining that they won't be able to purchase a $27,500 (after tax credit) model 3 and you think a $50,000 base model would sell better? That's what we have right now is a $49,000 base model ($35k+9K+5K) and people are complaining about the price!

 

[ggnykk]

I have long said on this forum I really like Tesla cars. They are unlike anything else in the marketplace right now. I have also said Tesla as a company will go bankrupt by the end of the year. (I wont go into the boring details of reading a financial report). However where there is smoke there is fire and the smoke right now is one of the big 3 might buy Tesla. Or even a wildcard like Apple. But if Ford or GM buy the company and fix the production delays with their car building expertise and vast supplier network, everything changes. Suddenly production schedules will be met and parts will be available which means happy customers. I hope for the sake of Tesla as a brand Ford or GM buys them....

There is no way Elon (and most major shareholders) would allow Tesla to be sold to GM or Ford, at ANY price. EV development and its future will all be stopped completely or at least slowed down significantly. That's like saying the biggest oil company buy up the biggest solar company and assume the oil company would continue the mission of going solar.

 

[ölbrenner]

I called it the potential "EV Camry", as in plain vanilla, low-cost electrified transportation.

Agreed, it's a lot of bang for the buck. But, it has no multi-link rear suspension (unlike the hybrid/PHEV variants), lots of torque steer, and of course no supercharging so not really practical for cross country trips.

 

[Dan Detweiler]

An EV should be the top concern. If your main concern isn't cleaning up the damage to our air quality caused by ICE, then you are a climate denier and an EV is pointless to you.

Get more of what? - more buttons and dials? more air pollution? more stops at a gasoline station? more oil changes? more of what?

The superiority of the model 3 is Zero Emissions. If you want your children breathing polluted air in an environment with greater swings in climate extremes, that is up to you. Elon is not really in the automobile or solar panel business, he is in the changing lifestyles for healthier living business. The BMW 330i and Audi A4 are not in the healthier living business. They are in the keep the public tied to big oil business.

Nicer in what way that provides a healthier future for your children?

People are complaining that they won't be able to purchase a $27,500 (after tax credit) model 3 and you think a $50,000 base model would sell better? That's what we have right now is a $49,000 base model ($35k+9K+5K) and people are complaining about the price!

While I won't "dislike" this post it is, in my opinion, these types of absolute "all or nothing", "you should believe this way" type of comments that are going to drive away more people than anything else. Who cares what the motivation is to buying an EV? Telling people what their priorities should or should not be is the quickest way to alienate people and drive away an other wise potential EV adopter. These cars are going to have to be compelling on all fronts, not just the fact that they are no emissions. Otherwise they will continue to be the playground for perceived environmentalist "nut cases". Please understand, I am not saying you are in any way a nut case. I am saying that there is a part of the population, a significant part I would say, that feel these types of environmental arguments to be futile and political in nature. Not really the way to make friends and influence people if you get my drift.

Dan

 

[Sportstick]

While I won't "dislike" this post it is, in my opinion, these types of absolute "all or nothing", "you should believe this way" type of comments that are going to drive away more people than anything else. Who cares what the motivation is to buying an EV? Telling people what their priorities should or should not be is the quickest way to alienate people and drive away an other wise potential EV adopter. These cars are going to have to be compelling on all fronts, not just the fact that they are no emissions. Otherwise they will continue to be the playground for perceived environmentalist "nut cases". Please understand, I am not saying you are in any way a nut case. I am saying that there is a part of the population, a significant part I would say, that feel these types of environmental arguments to be futile and political in nature. Not really the way to make friends and influence people if you get my drift.

Dan

I did dislike his and liked your post, and I might go further than you in making an assessment of the previous poster. I got the same offensively nonsensical lecture a couple of months ago when I canceled because the evidence suggested Tesla hadn't yet figured out some basics, such as how to assemble a steel sheetmetal body-in-white, among other issues, which would result in not delivering a well produced vehicle when I needed it. Some other recent threads, including on disabled cars, reinforced that decision. Coincidentally, I did wind up with a excellent 3 Series GT from BMW, which, in it's second month, has yet to show one problem of any type. I'm still interested in an EV for my next car, despite being associated with self-appointed holier-than-thou fanatics such as we have seen here. I've stayed here to keep learning if Tesla should be my next car, but the information being gleaned suggests increasingly to also consider other manufacturers who will launch new EVs and have more fundamental experience in building vehicles, although I'm still evaluating. Yes, EV is important, and I am quite opposite from a climate denier, but quality in design, assembly, and operation are also critical for purchases of this magnitude. The marketplace will provide choices which address all of those, and hopefully after some more learning and experience, Tesla will be leading among those and earn my purchase. They're not there yet.

 

[Dan Detweiler]

I did dislike his and liked your post, and I might go further than you in making an assessment. I got the same offensively nonsensical lecture a couple of months ago when I canceled because the evidence suggested Tesla hadn't yet figured out some basics, such as how to assemble a steel sheetmetal body-in-white, among other issues, which would result in not delivering a well produced vehicle when I needed it. Some other recent threads, including on disabled cars, reinforced that decision. Coincidentally, I did wind up with a excellent 3 Series GT from BMW, which, in it's second month, has yet to show one problem of any type. I'm still interested in an EV for my next car, despite being associated with self-appointed holier-than-thou fanatics such as we have seen here. I've stayed here to keep learning if Tesla should be my next car, but the information being gleaned suggests increasingly to also consider other manufacturers who will launch new EVs and have more fundamental experience in building vehicles, although I'm still evaluating. Yes, EV is important, and I am quite far from a climate denier, but quality in design, assembly, and operation are also critical.

If we are ever going to get to the point that a vehicle with an electric drivetrain is the norm and a viable alternative, the cars MUST be compelling. Looks, performance, value, quality, safety, features...and yes, non-pollutant status, all have to be on par with all of their competitors so that the "normal" consumer can weigh all of these things to come to an informed decision that is right for them. This can not rely solely on the lack of a tailpipe. Sure there will be people that will only see and only need that fact...but not many. If Tesla is going to reach it's goal of accelerating the adoption of renewable energy transportation then it is going to have to go much, much further than that.

Having said that, in my opinion they are well on their way to doing just that. Beautiful cars, outstanding performance, high tech features, etc. etc. They are appealing to a much broader spectrum of the auto buying public. Not quite there yet in my opinion, but well, well on their way. They are certainly compelling enough for me to put my money down at least!

Dan

 

[ℬête Noire]

Having said that, in my opinion they are well on their way to doing just that. Beautiful cars, outstanding performance, high tech features, etc. etc. They are appealing to a much broader spectrum of the auto buying public. Not quite there yet in my opinion, but well, well on their way. They are certainly compelling enough for me to put my money down at least!

If Tesla makes it to production on Gen 4 and hit somewhere around Musk's target of 20K base, which I think is quite possible given the trajectory of battery prices, they'll have reached that target for a lot of climates and most of the US. Certainly the populous parts.

There will remain the tougher eggs of colder climates in NA, northern interior of the US and most of Canada. That's going to take a shift to solid-state battery tech I expect. Probably some rethinking of construction of the vehicles for better heat insulation (which has generally been pretty sloppy since designers could count on the waste heat from ICE).

But after that? I expect the tables will seriously turn on gasoline because of pressure on the retail supply infrastructure. Right now gasoline retail is ubiquitous, and the demand for it means it can even be (and is) used as a loss-leader. Grocery stores do this. Corner stations don't make much on fuel, their margins are mostly in the convenience store they are really running whose traffic is driven by people stopping to fuel up.

When that collateral traffic starts drying up the inherent subsidy for the fuel price is going to shrink with it, and I predict we'll start seeing a spiral the other way in support infrastructure.