You're making me pine for my 65 Lotus Elan. Throttle pedal linked by cable directly to 4 Weber butterflies. Brake pedal linked directly to unassisted master cylinder. Visual system was the Mk. 1 eyeball.
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Door Pillar Cameras Blinded. Customer Service Problem.
- Thread starter Adrian777
- Start date
You're making me pine for my 65 Lotus Elan. Throttle pedal linked by cable directly to 4 Weber butterflies. Brake pedal linked directly to unassisted master cylinder. Visual system was the Mk. 1 eyeball.
Arguably you didn’t do enough research, otherwise you would have discovered that the cameras don’t work all the time. If he was still alive Joshua Brown would have told you this, but sadly he wasn’t paying attention when a white truck crossed his path in bright sunlight whilst he was on Autopilot.
The camera’s do get blinded, happens to me regularly on a sunny autumn/winter morning and it isn’t a fault but another example of how this car is still bleeding edge.
As for the staff, I’m afraid product knowledge is often not their strongpoint and for that there’s no excuse.
Maybe there are two ways of looking at this.
1.
You could be right. To be honest I feel a bit silly just assuming that products which big publicly traded companies sell would just work or they would fix it. Most companies do this because
1. Customer service reputation is huge
2. It’s a legal obligation
3. They want to maintain and build their customer base.
But I should have done more research and possibly bought from a more reputable company.
Or,
2.
The cars are bleeding edge and most owners cut them more slack because of this. As a result they can sell stuff that doesn’t work properly all the time and they get away with it. Hence why they didn’t seem to understand when I wasn’t happy with their response.
Possibly both are correct.
I have to confess I support Adrian777. I have also noticed it coming on very frequently recently. It is nothing to do with low sunlight and happens in the dark and when wet. The cameras are clean so that is not the problem. A recent two hour journey up the M1 was probably one of the most frustrating journeys in any car. A constant random error message and awful automatic wipers really put a dampener (no pun intended) on my perception of the car.
This was made worse when the cameras, on a separate journey, got condensation and understandably I got the error message. The service centre said this was normal and would therefore not book the car in. This is simply poor design.
If Tesla admitted to the problem and said they were working on a fix I would be more patient but it makes the car feel unsafe in these conditions
I do still love the car but this is a genuine disappointment
This was made worse when the cameras, on a separate journey, got condensation and understandably I got the error message. The service centre said this was normal and would therefore not book the car in. This is simply poor design.
If Tesla admitted to the problem and said they were working on a fix I would be more patient but it makes the car feel unsafe in these conditions
I do still love the car but this is a genuine disappointment
But what's the fault? Clearly we don't know exactly your scenarios but for me that warning comes up when I'm driving at night and it's pitch dark, or when there is low sun on that side. In both cases it passes if I drive somewhere where it can see again. Tesla can't easily rearrange the motion of the earth, so their current best plan is to let you know as otherwise you might hold them liable if the safety systems didn't detect something from that side.
Consider it like the little snowflake some cars show to warn you of ice, where their wheels don't work how you expected.
The fault is the cameras don’t work. The little snowflake light that comes on to warn you of ice works if it comes on at icy temps.
No-one is asking Tesla to do the impossible.
Look at it like this-
Should a vehicle and the components in that vehicle work as advertised? Yes of course.
If they don’t work should the customer have some reassurance they will be fixed or replaced? Yes, of course. It’s what they paid for.
Should the manufacturer be given the opportunity to fix the problem? Yes of course.
That is all I am asking for. It’s all I expect.
If it was the heater or the seat adjustment or the electric windows that didn’t function properly would your view be the same?
I have experienced it recently - it does appear to be the low sun - viewed through hedges and trees causing it to quickly affect the light level on the cameras. You can check it by using the reversing camera and view what the side cameras are seeing (though not the pillar cameras).
Nothing to get upset about, I not sure we can expect perfection on a 56K wonder car which is delivering so much in so many other areas.
Nothing to get upset about, I not sure we can expect perfection on a 56K wonder car which is delivering so much in so many other areas.
kelvin 660
White SR+ with LFP battery
It would be good if you could view what the camera is seeing (or not) in the rear camera view screen. E.g. pull down to view theses cameras...
It is so difficult for software to understand the real world. Take your Alexa or Google Home product for example - how many times has it told you it doesn't understand you only for you to repeat the exact same thing and it to work. Same with any software that tries to do image recognition. This page shows that humans managed to identify 87.7% of images and Google only 81.7%. Human brains are clever things, but how often have you been blinded by the sun, or unable to see when turning off a light in a pitch black room. The cameras are the same. They're trying to comprehend the outside world but at times they struggle, just like you and I. We're not infallible and Tesla doesn't claim to be either. Page 93 of the owners manual (About Autopilot - Limitations) calls out scenarios and circumstances when the cameras struggle. It reminds us that "It is the driver's responsibility to stay alert, drive safely and be in control of the vehicle at all times".
With Tesla you're paying for more than just the cameras. You're paying for an EV that can drive more miles than most other EVs out there. You're paying for the highest awarded safety level. You're paying for an EV that farts on demand.
Yes, I understand people's frustration but as @GRiLLA has said, other companies can't get it right either and we continue with our lives acknowledging that. At least Tesla is warning you and, just like the snowflake icon, people can choose to ignore the warning and drive normally, or drive more cautiously knowing that the car, handling, and features may be limited and / or less safe.
With Tesla you're paying for more than just the cameras. You're paying for an EV that can drive more miles than most other EVs out there. You're paying for the highest awarded safety level. You're paying for an EV that farts on demand.
Yes, I understand people's frustration but as @GRiLLA has said, other companies can't get it right either and we continue with our lives acknowledging that. At least Tesla is warning you and, just like the snowflake icon, people can choose to ignore the warning and drive normally, or drive more cautiously knowing that the car, handling, and features may be limited and / or less safe.
I think the central point is that Tesla have sold me a vehicle with systems incorporated into that vehicle which they claimed work. They show videos of them working. They charge for these systems.
But now I have bought the vehicle this system doesn’t work as they claimed it did and now they say it’s likely it won’t work all the time.
This cannot be right.
If I now decide that this is not what I signed up for (which it isn’t) and I want to sell the car, I have no doubt I would have a number of interested parties. But once we take it for a test drive and within the first few yards a warning flashes up, no-one is going to buy it from me. Why? Because it’s faulty. And if they then discover that Tesla don’t even want to look at it, I won’t see them for dust. So I am left holding the baby.
If I had wanted a car that gave out warnings on the dash every few yards, with all due respect I could have bought a 2005 Ford Focus, for a lot less money. Indeed, if I bought such a Focus from a dealer, he would have even had to fix the reasons for the warnings. I didn’t want this, so I bought a premium car for premium money. But seemingly because the seller is Tesla, it makes them immune to any obligation to give me what was advertised and what I paid for?
I get the physics that the cameras may be blinded by the sun etc (though that was not what Tesla said at all) but it’s not for me to work out how the system works. That is Tesla’s job and they claimed the system works. They sold me the system. I paid them for it.
But now I have bought the vehicle this system doesn’t work as they claimed it did and now they say it’s likely it won’t work all the time.
This cannot be right.
If I now decide that this is not what I signed up for (which it isn’t) and I want to sell the car, I have no doubt I would have a number of interested parties. But once we take it for a test drive and within the first few yards a warning flashes up, no-one is going to buy it from me. Why? Because it’s faulty. And if they then discover that Tesla don’t even want to look at it, I won’t see them for dust. So I am left holding the baby.
If I had wanted a car that gave out warnings on the dash every few yards, with all due respect I could have bought a 2005 Ford Focus, for a lot less money. Indeed, if I bought such a Focus from a dealer, he would have even had to fix the reasons for the warnings. I didn’t want this, so I bought a premium car for premium money. But seemingly because the seller is Tesla, it makes them immune to any obligation to give me what was advertised and what I paid for?
I get the physics that the cameras may be blinded by the sun etc (though that was not what Tesla said at all) but it’s not for me to work out how the system works. That is Tesla’s job and they claimed the system works. They sold me the system. I paid them for it.
Glan gluaisne
Active Member
I think the issue is that Tesla don't make it clear that you're not buying a finished product, but one that is still very much in development. Lots of things don't work 100%, and annoy the living daylights out of me, but I've come from driving Toyotas for years, where everything just works, but never changes.
Tesla seem to view their cars as bits of unfinished developing tech, unlike pretty much any other manufacturer. People might be used to this with other bits of unfinished developing tech, like flaky phone apps, software, etc, but for me, as a car owner, it did come as a surprise to find so many things that just don't work properly. The list is long, ranging from automatic wipers that are probably the worst I've seen on any car, through random error messages that pop up, like the cameras being blinded, to some fairly serious issues, like the car suddenly swerving, or apply the brakes hard, for no apparent reason.
I love some aspects of the car, like the performance, but if I'm honest I'm getting very tired of all the flakiness. There are times when I just want to get in the car and drive somewhere, without having to be ever-ready to stop the car from doing something dangerous. Whilst it's fun to see what's changed with any new update, there's always the thought in the back of my mind that they may have broken something else, and that the car might choose to do some other, apparently random thing when I'm least expecting it. As I get older I'm less inclined to be part of a product development team, and would rather have something that just works, without seemingly random changes.
Tesla seem to view their cars as bits of unfinished developing tech, unlike pretty much any other manufacturer. People might be used to this with other bits of unfinished developing tech, like flaky phone apps, software, etc, but for me, as a car owner, it did come as a surprise to find so many things that just don't work properly. The list is long, ranging from automatic wipers that are probably the worst I've seen on any car, through random error messages that pop up, like the cameras being blinded, to some fairly serious issues, like the car suddenly swerving, or apply the brakes hard, for no apparent reason.
I love some aspects of the car, like the performance, but if I'm honest I'm getting very tired of all the flakiness. There are times when I just want to get in the car and drive somewhere, without having to be ever-ready to stop the car from doing something dangerous. Whilst it's fun to see what's changed with any new update, there's always the thought in the back of my mind that they may have broken something else, and that the car might choose to do some other, apparently random thing when I'm least expecting it. As I get older I'm less inclined to be part of a product development team, and would rather have something that just works, without seemingly random changes.
You can't beat the laws of physics though. If it's low sun swamping the sensor in the camera then there's nothing they really can do about that. As good as modern machine vision is, camera sensors do not have the dynamic response of the human eye. The car is obviously detecting that particular condition...at this stage they really only have two choices: display a warning to advise the driver that the sensor cannot operate to allow the driver to change their behaviour accordingly; or do not distract the driver with an error message.
Again, I understand but that’s not how they sell it. If it doesn’t work all the time they should say so.
Glan gluaisne
Active Member
I agree, there is far too much hype around. Any prospective customer has to dig around in places like this forum to discover the many flaws in the cars, and risks being pilloried by some for being too vocal about them, perhaps. IMHO, Tesla skate pretty damned close to the wind when it comes to consumer legislation. I get the feeling that they either don't understand it, or don't care about complying with it. The recent case of the spec for premium connectivity being changed after purchase is a good example, but there are many others, where cars have had features removed or changed between being ordered and being delivered. Few seem willing to challenge this, though, the only notable exception I can think of is the group that complained about the removal of premium connectivity, and won. Even then it seems that Tesla didn't admit to any wrongdoing, they just quietly reinstated it. They even sold cars that failed to comply with a compliance standard they had signed up to, and when they did fix that non-compliance (almost a year after they first sold the cars here) they didn't admit their failure.
You are absolutely right. The 'early' days of Tesla making experimental stuff should be past after 12yrs. Something as basic as condensation in the camera housings ought to have been resolved by now - hardly impossible to have added extra heaters or vent systems. Low sun isn't the issue. the issue is low sun when there's any degree of condensation and scatter on the lenses or lens ports. When low sun causes direct blinding then it is also causing direct blinding to a human eye (as in no-one can drive safely unless very slow and focussed low down in front of the vehicle - something we've all done). In camera terms you either add extras angled differently or use lens hoods or add an iris. To claim 'feature compete' implies the system as such can work in all conditions that a human could function (albeit with actual software fsd still being developed - the honest but delayed bit).
Tesla continues to get away with this because of the obvious fan base enthusiasm and the other good bits of the car. Unless folk keep compaining and nagging then they will not change until it suits Tesla.
In conclusion then, in my original post I asked two questions.
Firstly, was the issue with the door pillar cameras being blinded or blocked a common problem? The general consensus seems to be that it is very common, particularly at this time of year in the U.K.
Secondly, what, if anything should I do about Tesla's reticence to address my issue and concerns? With a few notable exceptions most seem to say they are not concerned about the issue or bothered by the constant warnings on the screen. Most seem to be of the opinion we should cut Tesla some slack because the car is cutting edge.
Fair assessment?
Firstly, was the issue with the door pillar cameras being blinded or blocked a common problem? The general consensus seems to be that it is very common, particularly at this time of year in the U.K.
Secondly, what, if anything should I do about Tesla's reticence to address my issue and concerns? With a few notable exceptions most seem to say they are not concerned about the issue or bothered by the constant warnings on the screen. Most seem to be of the opinion we should cut Tesla some slack because the car is cutting edge.
Fair assessment?
One word ignored so far: BETA. The cams are not part of a safety system. Vigilance and control are always required.
I've had the door cams go offline a few times. Almost always in deluge conditions that made me question the sense of continuing the drive. Once I had condensation but it cleared in a few miles.
Tesla's response to the OP's complaint was short of the mark.
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What I find interesting is that I never had this problem on my previous Model 3.
