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STbreaker
Member
Since I've already reconciled the 70D in my (and my wife's mind) I wouldn't do it if they called me today and asked. However, if I hadn't ordered yet, I would buy a 60 over a 75. As I mulled over in another thread, I'm not sure why 60 -> 70 yields 22 miles of range yet 70 -> 75 adds 19.
In any case, I can't remember the last time I drove >200 miles in a day without being on a road trip, so even though it sounds a bit scarier on paper, I don't think I would have a problem at all with the 60.
In any case, I can't remember the last time I drove >200 miles in a day without being on a road trip, so even though it sounds a bit scarier on paper, I don't think I would have a problem at all with the 60.
e-FTW
New electron smell
You do get a bit more speed with the D, but not that much. If you add a "P", then that is a whole other story, and a whole other price range. 
Congrats on the order, this car will be fantastic! Especially in that color. I was this close to getting that blue.
Congrats on the order, this car will be fantastic! Especially in that color. I was this close to getting that blue.
twonius
Member
Thanks for the perspective. I'm debating 85 vs 60 right now. Honestly there are a lot of CPO 60s on the market right now while 85s seem to be charging a premium. For that extra 7k (on a used car) I can afford a lot of plane tickets.
2013 60s aren't exactly cheap now either. With the new 60s coming some of them are only marginally less than new after the tax credit.. for a 3 year old car. I guess as long as the Xs continue to need loaners Tesla's in no hurry to clear out used inventory.
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Twonius, I would avoid buying used if at all possible. Build quality has gotten much better and there are many design refinements. For example, 2013s have loud compressor pumps, lack the hill hold feature, have a back-assward arrangement of cruise control stalk and turn signal, feature inferior interior roof materials, and are in general more rickety. It's also missing automatic braking and AP hardware. In my opinion the current Model S, even before the refresh, is a very different car from the 2013 version.
I just don't think the value is there for going used. My feeling is that used cars tend to have options that don't really matter too much, while even baseline new cars will have important safety and design upgrades that will make a difference - at least to me, anyway.
So I suggest buying the Model 3, or the baseline RWD S with minimal upgrades. Consumer Reports just told us that tires, not AWD, are what really matter in winter, and who absolutely needs that rear power lift gate, anyway?
In my mind, Teslas are like iPhones - if you're going to pay up for a better product, get the latest and greatest, even if it's the cheap model. And they both will change your life.
e-FTW
New electron smell
Agreed. Let us not forget that we are still early in the game for most of these technologies (EV, semi-autonomous driving), so older cars get older quicker. The rate of innovation is just so high right now that I would go for a base current model instead of an older with more options. You want the base hardware to be up to the latest you can get. Forget model and options mix.
I think used Model S' are fine, so long as they have autopilot (built after November '14) -- those pre-autopilot versions are going to have a lower price vs. a new Model S, or even a used Model S with Autopilot.
Good analogy with the iPhone -- the technology of the Tesla gets better with every revision -- when my car was built in 3/15, it had 3G connectivity for the car, in April or May they updated that to LTE.
These days, I think the base 60 is probably the best deal -- superchargers really make the larger battery unnecessary for most people.
whitex
Well-Known Member
Personally, if I was buying (vs. leasing) I would go for 60D over 75, main reason being that capacity can be upgraded later if needed, and awd cannot. Awd does add better traction including cornering, plus awd regen which can save on brakes too (depending on how you drive).
Oh, yeah, I forgot about the LTE. Another reason to get a more recent S. I just wish my web browser weren't so slow (I think it's the CPU) that it's hard to tell it's not 3G!
Agreed that getting a Tesla with AP is the way to go for used. Most of the AP cars feel like they're put together a lot better, too. Trouble is, the cheapest one on EV-CPO right now is $71085 and has no rebate. Why not get a refreshed, brand-new S for a lot less?
twonius
Member
Thanks, yeah I've been comparing a lot against a new S70 with AP. I kind of prefer the big frunk in older cars though so perhaps an inventory car would be the best for me
Keep in mind that the old 60 car is completely different from the new 60 car. The old 60 has 60 kwh battery, while the new 60 is actually a 75 kwh battery limited at 80%. The new 60 is FAR superior than the old one in terms of super charging speed, battery longevity etc. Not to mention the new 60 is a more mature car with other new features.
TJ&TheBeast
Ghost | White 75D
I used to buy lithium batteries professionally and always suspected that true capacity of every Tesla model is higher than rated just so they can get to "100%" super fast without damaging the cells and claim slower battery degradation.
I have a 70D being delivered in the next two weeks and won't change up (to 75) or down (to 60.) It's nice to have the 5+ kWh buffer already for "free." Having 15+ kWh locked up will gnaw at me. But if I buy a 60D, I just don't see myself or any buyer unlocking to make it 75 later for $9000. Tesla should really just make 3 battery packs given the intent of the 60 is to bring forward some of the higher end Model 3 demand.
I have a 70D being delivered in the next two weeks and won't change up (to 75) or down (to 60.) It's nice to have the 5+ kWh buffer already for "free." Having 15+ kWh locked up will gnaw at me. But if I buy a 60D, I just don't see myself or any buyer unlocking to make it 75 later for $9000. Tesla should really just make 3 battery packs given the intent of the 60 is to bring forward some of the higher end Model 3 demand.
What I suspect Tesla is doing is because of a combination of six factors.
#1 - The battery cost are going down, but they won't lower the vehicle price of existing cars (like the 75).
#2 - Because of the massive pre-order of the Model 3 they realized there was a lot of pent up demand for a cheaper Tesla. They also realized that having so many pre-orders wasn't necessarily a good thing, and wanted to shift those to actual orders for the Model S. That way it smooths out the ramp up,
#3 - It's cost prohibitive to come out with lots of different versions. Having more battery options (that are physical options) is overly complicated. Not just in assembly, but in testing/programming for it/etc.
#4 - Once a person is in a Tesla they tend to stay in a Tesla. The hard part is getting people into an electric car because it's such a massive shift from what they're used to. It took me forever to decide to go ahead with my purchase of a Model S, and I went with a lower end one (a 70D) because it gave me less anxiety. Once I had the car for a few months I became a lot more comfortable with the idea of spending more money for one. If I had a 60D that could upgrade to a 75D there is no question I would do so (but, not from a 70D to a 75D though). The $7500 tax rebate makes it easier to upgrade a year later.
#5 - As time goes on people will demand bigger batteries on the low end. If you release a 60 that can easily be converted to a 75 3-4 later when it goes up for sale as a CPO makes a lot of sense. The user doesn't have to unlock it. The user just trades it in, and Tesla is able to get more profit out of it by selling it as a 75D.
#6 - A smaller battery takes too long to supercharge to X number of miles when X is approaching the limits of the physical battery. You give someone a big physical battery, but limit the capacity in software means they can charge to X number of miles without it taking an long time to charge to X.
#1 - The battery cost are going down, but they won't lower the vehicle price of existing cars (like the 75).
#2 - Because of the massive pre-order of the Model 3 they realized there was a lot of pent up demand for a cheaper Tesla. They also realized that having so many pre-orders wasn't necessarily a good thing, and wanted to shift those to actual orders for the Model S. That way it smooths out the ramp up,
#3 - It's cost prohibitive to come out with lots of different versions. Having more battery options (that are physical options) is overly complicated. Not just in assembly, but in testing/programming for it/etc.
#4 - Once a person is in a Tesla they tend to stay in a Tesla. The hard part is getting people into an electric car because it's such a massive shift from what they're used to. It took me forever to decide to go ahead with my purchase of a Model S, and I went with a lower end one (a 70D) because it gave me less anxiety. Once I had the car for a few months I became a lot more comfortable with the idea of spending more money for one. If I had a 60D that could upgrade to a 75D there is no question I would do so (but, not from a 70D to a 75D though). The $7500 tax rebate makes it easier to upgrade a year later.
#5 - As time goes on people will demand bigger batteries on the low end. If you release a 60 that can easily be converted to a 75 3-4 later when it goes up for sale as a CPO makes a lot of sense. The user doesn't have to unlock it. The user just trades it in, and Tesla is able to get more profit out of it by selling it as a 75D.
#6 - A smaller battery takes too long to supercharge to X number of miles when X is approaching the limits of the physical battery. You give someone a big physical battery, but limit the capacity in software means they can charge to X number of miles without it taking an long time to charge to X.
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TJ&TheBeast
Ghost | White 75D
I definitely agree on making a 75 that is electronically locked to 60 for leased vehicles in Tesla's shoes (your point #5.) The tax rebate argument in point #4 sounds like a good way to upsell later on the surface but I just cannot see someone getting comfortable with their commute using a 60 upgrading later solely for a longer range. If Tesla also locked acceleration a bit, then I would be itching to upgrade if I hypothetically went in at a 60 base model.
whitex
Well-Known Member
Just to balance the points of view here, as it doesn't seem like those who voice the "pre-AP cars are no good" have provided much data to back it up.
I drove 2013 MS for 2 years and now a 2015 for a year. I had no complaints about the quality of the 2013 at all, as a matter of fact the 2015 has had more noise, clicks and rattles than the 2013. I agree about the blinker stock being in a "wrong" place but that takes only a few days to get used to. 3G to LTE, nice to have and also available as an upgrade for $500 if you so desire (also, not all AP cars have LTE). Whether you want AP - that's a personal choice. I have it but might not buy the current incarnation again - it works well most of the time, but when if fails it can cause a lot of damage and you as the driver are always responsible - so you have to ask yourself what is the value of AP if you have to constantly watch is as if you were driving with a student driver who is occasionally known to experience seizures while driving.
So, bottom line, don't discount an older CPO just because it is older. It's always nicest to get a loaded new P90D, but it doesn't mean a 2013 S60 CPO is not a good choice at 1/3 of the price.
I drove 2013 MS for 2 years and now a 2015 for a year. I had no complaints about the quality of the 2013 at all, as a matter of fact the 2015 has had more noise, clicks and rattles than the 2013. I agree about the blinker stock being in a "wrong" place but that takes only a few days to get used to. 3G to LTE, nice to have and also available as an upgrade for $500 if you so desire (also, not all AP cars have LTE). Whether you want AP - that's a personal choice. I have it but might not buy the current incarnation again - it works well most of the time, but when if fails it can cause a lot of damage and you as the driver are always responsible - so you have to ask yourself what is the value of AP if you have to constantly watch is as if you were driving with a student driver who is occasionally known to experience seizures while driving.
So, bottom line, don't discount an older CPO just because it is older. It's always nicest to get a loaded new P90D, but it doesn't mean a 2013 S60 CPO is not a good choice at 1/3 of the price.
Not to mention that multiple companies are working on an after market adaptive cruise control type system for existing cars (of all makes and models). So I'm not sure it will make much difference going forwards.
Once a person has a Tesla it has a tendency to start taking over. At first it's doing some small trip and checking out the superchargers. Then you realize it was a lot of fun. Then you start doing more and more things with it that you'd didn't really envision when you bought the car.
If you told me I was going to put 20K miles on my Tesla in the first year I would have said you were completely out of your mind, but I put 20K miles on it in less than a year. I also know I'm not an edge case, but I'm a good example because I actually have anxiety before driving in places I'm not familiar with. It's this huge dread that washes over before I go, and previously I tended to make excuses not to go or find some other way.
The other thing that comes into play is the whole "winter is coming". That definitely has more meaning with a Tesla than an ICE car. So there are times where you're like "damn, why the hell did it is use that much?", and then you'll start to want a bit more margin.
Keep in mind that I'm purely speculating. I am massively curious as to what percentage of people do upgrade after receiving their cars. I know I would have because of my own personal situation, but every owners financial situation differs. A far number might be really stretching to get a 60D.
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e-FTW
New electron smell
Who about for a non-D 60? Everyone keeps talking about the 60D. But there is a cheaper version still! It is the RWD-only 60, and I strongly encourage folks to look at it. I understand winter and snow and all that. But with good winter tires (not all-seasons), I am convinced this car can handle snow just fine.
Reeler
Decade of Pure EV Driving
Is Tesla talking the position that someone who ordered a 70KWh version cannot downgrade to 60KWh for the $500? My Purchase Agreement contract says "If you want to make changes to your Vehicle Configuration, we will try to accommodate
your request. If we accept your request, you will be subject to a non-refundable $500 change fee"
Is Tesla seriously saying that cannot be done when they can on the day of delivery upgrade you from 70KWh to 75KWh? Are you kidding me?
your request. If we accept your request, you will be subject to a non-refundable $500 change fee"
Is Tesla seriously saying that cannot be done when they can on the day of delivery upgrade you from 70KWh to 75KWh? Are you kidding me?
whitex
Well-Known Member
The new S60 is a great deal. It's $4K less than the original S60, includes supercharger which used to cost $2K, has AP hardware with the safety features plus has an option to enable full AP for a fee, includes parts of the previous tech package which used to cost of around 3K, and it has the bigger battery with an option to unlock. Having driven the rwd MS I gotta say it handled about the same as my awd-on-demand Lexus used to. The ability to control torque on ms by ms is awesome (ICE engines cannot do that). Today's S60 is the best deal on an MS to date!
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