Downsides of Performance vs Long Range?

[Eugr]

When I drove the P I had to switch to chill, because I was annoyed by the pedal in the city. And I am coming from a 3 series with 8 gear automatic that can also do 5+ secs. If you have the money go for it, but you will never use it.

I have a different experience. I test drove LR AWD and took a Performance model for an overnight test drive and didn't notice significant difference in "throttle" response unless you want to floor it. Felt pretty comfortable driving in traffic or on the highway in the P model.

Then I took it to the airport to check out the acceleration and floored it on an empty taxiway. Decided that Performance model is a bit too much for me, the acceleration is fun (and a bit uncomfortable, similar to steep turns in the airplane), but I don't see myself using full power in everyday driving, and I don't do racing.

 

[al503]

I have a different experience. I test drove LR AWD and took a Performance model for an overnight test drive and didn't notice significant difference in "throttle" response unless you want to floor it. Felt pretty comfortable driving in traffic or on the highway in the P model.

Agree here. It's not difficult, and I'll go as far as saying it's easy, to drive the P smoothly. There's definitely enough pedal travel for easy modulation. (I think there's a little too much travel, actually.)

Then I took it to the airport to check out the acceleration and floored it on an empty taxiway. Decided that Performance model is a bit too much for me, the acceleration is fun (and a bit uncomfortable, similar to steep turns in the airplane), but I don't see myself using full power in everyday driving, and I don't do racing.

I don't use it very often but it's nice to floor it leaving work every now and then or squirt forward when merging/changing lanes.

 

[tomot]

I’m not going to take my P to the track near often enough to call it a value on that basis, but man do I get a smile on my face every time I feel that acceleration! It’s great around corners too. Totally worth it to me. If I couldn’t feel the acceleration, though... not so much.

I'm with your enthusiasm! but at the same time I much prefer watching a skilled driver like Ken Block drifting and running a car to its knees (aka rims)....plus its a lot easier on my pocket book

 

[ammulder]

I'm with your enthusiasm! but at the same time I much prefer watching a skilled driver like Ken Block drifting and running a car to its knees (aka rims)....plus its a lot easier on my pocket book

I understand the point you're making... but I enjoy driving so much more than watching! (Even if I can't drive like Ken Block.

 

[Paddy3101]

You have test driven them over a period of time, really, how so? I did not know that Tesla offered such a program. I am basing my statements on 4,000+ miles driving my P and roughly 500 miles driving an AWD...so I do think that my experiences are statistically relevant -- even if only using the efficiency calculations right from the car. And to be clear, my personal experience has been that there is roughly a 5% difference in range if you drive both cars the same way.

I also did not state that the 20" wheels are more efficient, only that people make the difference between them and the 19" wheels out to be a bigger factor than they are. Please reread my statement.

Finally, I completely agree with your last statement -- if you live somewhere where it rarely snows, or perhaps snows once a year? RWD is a better bet (at least from an efficiency standpoint). But in places like the NE or Midwest United States where we can have snow on the ground for weeks at a time I believe folks would be better served with an AWD car...at least from a practicality standpoint.

I would like to second this opinion. There IS a difference between the AWD and the P. The difference isn't in the size of the wheel, the difference is in the compound of the tire. Put the same tyre on the 19" and it will do the same. At freeway speeds though, the rolling resistance of the tyre becomes much less important than the Aero of the car.

And the P is slightly lowed, which improves Aero, and has a Spoiler, which does the same.

BUT, the difference is very small in comparison to the drivers input. If you use 450bhp worth of electric, then you are using more than 350bhp. You can use WAY more electric in a P than in an AWD, BUT you don't have to, that's what the throttle is for, it's not a switch.
Put the 2 cars into Chill mode, and they both produce the same torque/hp, only difference at that point is the Tires and Aero.

As for AWD, it's not just a benefit in the snow, helps in the wet AND in the dry if you are pushing it. Also helps with Tire wear, which will be much more even on the AWD compared to the RWD.

And don't think that the extra performance doesn't come in handy quite alot. Helps alot getting onto freeways, passing. Don't have to use it all the time.

 

[Watts_Up]

I'm with your enthusiasm! but at the same time I much prefer watching a skilled driver like Ken Block
drifting and running a car to its knees (aka rims)....plus its a lot easier on my pocket book

You mean roasting tires...

 

[UngaBunga1989]

In Europe you can get a Testdrive overnight for the weekend. Basically you take the car on Sat and return it by Monday noon. We did a 950km road trip with a P. We also rented out an AWD once for a 700km stretch and some city driving.

The P was always hungrier, no matter how I drove it. The difference between P and RWD is at least 20% constant and this is what fellow forum members are saying. There is one guy on the european forum who owns both cars and does regular tests -22% difference is what he calculates. The difference between AWD and P is at least 10% and if you get the 18" with aero somewhere around 15%%.

As for cheaping out, it is not a matter of money but of practicallity to me. And I also drive in Germany a lot where you can easily use the advantage of P. You guys will never need or make any use of the performance.

When I drove the P I had to switch to chill, because I was annoyed by the pedal in the city. And I am coming from a 3 series with 8 gear automatic that can also do 5+ secs. If you have the money go for it, but you will never use it.

Thanks for the follow-up. Your experience and mine are, in fact, very different, but I appreciate your perspective. At the end of the day I bought a car (P3D) whose advertised range is based on an efficiency of 250 Wh/mi and I have no doubt based on my experience that if I drive it reasonably without needing lots of heat (via the climate control) I can easily achieve that.

 

[Paddy3101]

Here's an example of Range on a P3D+. Average of 237Wh/mile at an average of approx 65mph over 114 miles. Last 30 miles is at 222.

Each to their own, that's why there is a range of cars, But the performance of the P is Very usable. Most of the difference between the AWD and the P happens at normal/legal road speeds.

 

[Mrcarcrazy]

Here's an example of Range on a P3D+. Average of 237Wh/mile at an average of approx 65mph over 114 miles. Last 30 miles is at 222.

Each to their own, that's why there is a range of cars, But the performance of the P is Very usable. Most of the difference between the AWD and the P happens at normal/legal road speeds.

View attachment 415598

That’s been my observation from the hours of YouTube videos I’ve watched. (Waiting for my P now).

 

[WilliamG]

Here's an example of Range on a P3D+. Average of 237Wh/mile at an average of approx 65mph over 114 miles. Last 30 miles is at 222.

Each to their own, that's why there is a range of cars, But the performance of the P is Very usable. Most of the difference between the AWD and the P happens at normal/legal road speeds.

View attachment 415598

Couldn’t agree more. No regrets with the P. It’s the best street-speed-legal car I’ve ever driven (and I’ve driven a lot of performance cars).

 

[TimothyHW3]

Here's an example of Range on a P3D+. Average of 237Wh/mile at an average of approx 65mph over 114 miles. Last 30 miles is at 222.

Each to their own, that's why there is a range of cars, But the performance of the P is Very usable. Most of the difference between the AWD and the P happens at normal/legal road speeds.

View attachment 415598

And this proves exactly what? If you actually do the math correctly, it is less than ,55mph ,a not 65,and there is a huge difference between 65 and 55 in wind resistance and not so much between 55 and 45. For example.

But even so, you mainly prooved the point, since an AWD would've been closer to 22Wh/mi on that run and an RWD closer to 20.
And you basically spent 10,000$ more just to drive the car with 60mph flat with AP on... And maybe, just maybe, floor it once or twice. To each their own, Tesla will love you. But if you are going out of the way and 10-15,000$ is a lot of money to you go with AWD or RWD.

That is my sound advice.

 

[jbcarioca]

The only topic in this thread not discussed was the option of buying P3D+ and swapping for 18" aftermarket wheels and tires.
For example these are the ones I bought: 18
They fit over the Performance brakes and provide the resilience of the standard wheels. In my case I sold the original wheels and tires for almost the same price as my replacements, so this ended out costing almost nothing, FWIW, the Tesla OEM 19" wheels can have a spacer added so they too will fit perfectly.

Those permit retaining the ridiculous high performance of the + while minimizing road hazards and reducing energy consumption a little bit, assuming of course taht oen does not partake of all that performance.

From a pure economic perspective the AWD is obviously a better choice. On pure economics most of my choices are not optimal.

In my opinion if one can afford it and also enjoy irrational high performance the P3D+, PS+ or PX+ are superb choices. If one does not enjoy the thrill of Insane/Ludicrous acceleration then avoid the "P" for there is no rational justification for them.

FWIW. I have made sequential ridiculous choices in favor of stupid and unnecessary high performance in airplanes (BEF90-1, LR25D), boats (e.g. a small fishing boat equipped with a gigantic Ford V-8) and automobiles (a long sequence of truly stupid economic but emotionally inspiring choices from Italy, Germany, and the UK). With that history of environmental depredation I would of course select the least efficient option among the most efficient vehicle class. That easily explains my P85DL as well as the P3D+.

Obviously I understand there is zero justification for any "P" choice. Don't even try to make the choice logical because such a choice can not be logically justified!

 

[Paddy3101]

And this proves exactly what? If you actually do the math correctly, it is less than ,55mph ,a not 65,and there is a huge difference between 65 and 55 in wind resistance and not so much between 55 and 45. For example.

But even so, you mainly prooved the point, since an AWD would've been closer to 22Wh/mi on that run and an RWD closer to 20.
And you basically spent 10,000$ more just to drive the car with 60mph flat with AP on... And maybe, just maybe, floor it once or twice. To each their own, Tesla will love you. But if you are going out of the way and 10-15,000$ is a lot of money to you go with AWD or RWD.

That is my sound advice.

It 'PROVES' nothing, it is 'INDICATIVE' that the P3D+ can be driven efficiently, and isn't hugely worse than the AWD. It's also 'INDICATIVE' that the way you drive the car has a much bigger effect on efficiency than the differences between the cars.

And you have 'NO IDEA' (and nether to I) what an AWD or RWD on that run. It's just indicative, that a P3D, can be driven to close to the EPA range under 'normal' rather than 'controlled lab conditions'.

Also, you do know that the EPA figures for range/empg is based on a 48mph average on the freeway cycle, with a Max speed of 60 (briefly)

If you do the maths 'Correctly' the average speed for the whole trip is '56mph' by the ODO on the car. However for this post, I simplified the calculations, discarding the standstill, parking and local traffic mileage on the way to the freeway, out of the calculation of average speed, and used an independent GPS tracking app on my phone. Yes, this wasn't clear fro this post, And on this trip, during the day, with traffic, on freeways with 55 and 65 mph limits (and 25/35mpg local roads with lights on the way to the freeway). I was also 2 minutes EARLY for my planned arrival time, I didn't need to go any faster. Also, the route has approx 2000ft of climbing (and the same descending, as it's a circular route.)

So, the route is faster than the EPA average, has many more ascents/descents than the EPA standard, and has some mix of city driving in it as well.

You can also see, that the last 30miles hit average of 222Wh/mi, which is significantly under the Rated rate (which is the solid line on the graph)

Still doesn't PROVE anything, but it's indicative that there isn't a 20% (50Wh/mi) difference from the AWD. You think a AWD would be averaging 187Wh/mi? (Taking 20% of the rated 250Wh/mi). Or do the math on the last 30miles, so the AWD could be at 177Wh/mi?

If you are saying that the AWD would be averaging 220 Wh/mi, Possibly, but I doubt it. But lets go with that number. That's a 9% difference, not 20%.

Is the tire compound (which is the ONLY negative difference between a AWD and a P), at freeway speed, going to make the same difference in consumption, as the difference between a Model 3 and a Model Y? That doesn't seem right. 4 to 5% I could buy that. Double the 9% plus a bit, not a chance.

Absolutely, did not 'FLOOR IT' at all during this trip. No need or desire to, but still got where I wanted to go early. As you can see, the car was in 'CHILL' mode. Doesn't mean I DON'T.

For me, a $10k premium to have the car I want isn't a big deal. I also didn't pay a $10k premium for the car over an AWD. For me the P3D+ has plenty of range for what I want, driving the way I want. And IF I want to stretch the range, by driving more efficiently I can.

 

[brianman]

The only topic in this thread not discussed was the option of buying P3D+ and swapping for 18" aftermarket wheels and tires.
For example these are the ones I bought: 18
They fit over the Performance brakes

Ditto. Except I bought the set with all seasons on them.

 

[Wooloomooloo]

Here's an example of Range on a P3D+. Average of 237Wh/mile at an average of approx 65mph over 114 miles. Last 30 miles is at 222.

Each to their own, that's why there is a range of cars, But the performance of the P is Very usable. Most of the difference between the AWD and the P happens at normal/legal road speeds.

View attachment 415598

This is pretty much my experience too.

I have the Performance with 20" wheels, and in the dead of winter, at 70mph with the heat on (68 degrees) and going slightly uphill on a windy day, you're going to hit ~330 Wh/mi. This time of year I'm getting 100 Wh/mile less than that.

I am changing my wheels to the 19" TSS Forged because I kept having tire issues with potholes int he North East, and finally smashed a wheel on one of them - that would the only thing I'd change, otherwise no regrets.

Oh... someone mentioned the spoiler... in your dreams!

 

[TimothyHW3]

22%

The 22% difference is to the LR RWD, not AWD. If you read carefully I said 10% difference to the AWD. And 22% to RWD.
And this is if you drive below the 65mph at almost constant speeds, which at least in Europe, is rarely on the highway. And this negotiates the whole point of having a P...

To some a 10% difference is nothing, true, but the question is still wether you would need a P to drive constant 60mph on Autopilot or even worse, in the city. And wether the 10T$ premium is worth it.

To me the answer is no, to you it is yes.

 

[Paddy3101]

Oh... someone mentioned the spoiler... in your dreams!

Yes, I got one fitted after about a month, BUT it's falling off/lifting quite badly. So waiting on another one now.

 

[Wooloomooloo]

And you basically spent 10,000$ more just to drive the car with 60mph flat with AP on... And maybe, just maybe, floor it once or twice. To each their own, Tesla will love you. But if you are going out of the way and 10-15,000$ is a lot of money to you go with AWD or RWD.

That is my sound advice.

And in the ICE world, to go from a car that has a 4.5 second 0-60 time to one with a 3.1 second 0-60 time, you'd probably have to pay between 50% more and 2 - 3x the cost.

Performance is always over-priced.

 

[Wooloomooloo]

Yes, I got one fitted after about a month, BUT it's falling off/lifting quite badly. So waiting on another one now.

Lucky you - I got my car last October and still don't have one.

 

[Paddy3101]

The 22% difference is to the LR RWD, not AWD. If you read carefully I said 10% difference to the AWD. And 22% to RWD.
And this is if you drive below the 65mph at almost constant speeds, which at least in Europe, is rarely on the highway. And this negotiates the whole point of having a P...

To some a 10% difference is nothing, true, but the question is still wether you would need a P to drive constant 60mph on Autopilot or even worse, in the city. And wether the 10T$ premium is worth it.

To me the answer is no, to you it is yes.

You have mis-quoted me, nowhere did I say 22%

If you read, I have DISAGREED with your 10% supposition/guess. My assertion, is that the difference in the 'technical efficiency' of the models is Minor, in comparison to the method of driving.

The Official, scientific EPA results give a 5% difference in range between the RWD LR and P. (325 vs 310) miles I believe. In the real-world your results may vary. BUT I can choose to drive my car using 237Wh/mi or I can burn through at 450+Wh/mi. The range you get is more influenced by the drivers current driving style, than the relative efficiencies of the cars.

The 'NEED' argument is pointless ANY car on the road in the last 50 years can comfortably drive at a constant 60mph. Almost none of the pros/cons of car buying are anything to do with need, is all about desire/would like to/wouldn't it be nice if.

It's all a trade off. Quite happy to trade off a small % of efficiency/range for higher performance Brakes, Tyres, Suspension, Motors and Trim. That small % isn't going to cost me any extra supercharger stops, extra time refilling, etc.