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Downsides of Performance vs Long Range?

jbcarioca

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2015
5,170
24,379
What I meant was that I bought the package rather than just the wheels. Details. :)
Yes indeed. So did I. As far as I can see as a downside is that one may need a wheel balance soon after possibly due to shipping and installation effects. Small issue..
 

ibcrypto

Member
Jun 8, 2019
13
2
Los Angeles
Good thread! Thinking of switching my recent M3LR to the M3P. One thought is for resale. Would not the same enthusiasts who are willing to pay more for Tesla Performance while at the same saving with comparable ICE Sports Sedans make for a better resale value in the future?
 

raptor5244

Active Member
May 10, 2019
1,022
766
Florida
Good thread! Thinking of switching my recent M3LR to the M3P. One thought is for resale. Would not the same enthusiasts who are willing to pay more for Tesla Performance while at the same saving with comparable ICE Sports Sedans make for a better resale value in the future?

In theory, yes. The enthusiast will typically pay more to have the "Performance" model. We just don't know what other performance EVs are on the horizon that may impact the market. When Mustangs, Camaros, Subarus, etc. start releasing Performance coupes, convertibles and such it will get more interesting. Imagine how much more fun a GT86 or Miata would be in EV form? I hope I am alive to experience it.
 
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Glamisduner

Active Member
Aug 2, 2017
3,581
2,118
Escondido, CA
There has to be a slight hit as they are heavier. Many here say that you make it up in the regen but regen isn't close to 1:1. Regardless. I think this should be something you consider but it should be way down on the list of importance.

The other issue with the 20's besides the weight are potholes. If you live where you don't have to worry about them, you're set. If you have to worry about them, you might be in for an expensive surprise every now and then.

I have the Performance and don't regret it at all. The slight drop really isn't that noticeable but you can see it if you're parked next to a non Performance. (The different wheel/tire combo probably enhances that difference as well.) The difference in acceleration was much more noticeable, IMO. I have a set of 19"s coming in shortly to replace the 20"s as we do have a lot of potholes in my neck of the woods. The 19"s will also be about 8-9 lbs lighter per corner so that should actually help in most metrics.
I have 19's on my P3d-, they are forged so they are lighter than my 18's. The wheel tire combo should be the exact same weight (without covers, and new tires being slightly larger size) going by listed specifications. The tires must be causing the range penalty for me. Although I really do like the PS4S over the MxM4s, so the penalty is worth it for me. I don't know how much penalty I would be seeing from the boat anchor 20's but it I'm thinking it won't be as much as the tires.

You can always buy the wheels like mine, Titan 7's and they will fit the performance brakes. Hell even the 18's fit if you want to go that small.
 

Paddy3101

Member
Mar 20, 2019
261
389
San Diego, US
I have 19's on my P3d-, they are forged so they are lighter than my 18's. The wheel tire combo should be the exact same weight (without covers, and new tires being slightly larger size) going by listed specifications. The tires must be causing the range penalty for me. Although I really do like the PS4S over the MxM4s, so the penalty is worth it for me. I don't know how much penalty I would be seeing from the boat anchor 20's but it I'm thinking it won't be as much as the tires.

You can always buy the wheels like mine, Titan 7's and they will fit the performance brakes. Hell even the 18's fit if you want to go that small.

Any extra weight of wheels/tires at a constant speed is going to be negligible, compared to the Tire compound. If you're not accelerating the wheel/tire then you aren't using any energy.

The rolling resistance of the tire is happening all the time, so the difference here is significant. Tires generate grip by deforming to the road surface, increasing the contact area and hence friction. The more they deform, to generate grip, the more energy they are absorbing to do so.

So when looking at driving efficiently (i.e. avoiding accelerating/braking) the weight isn't that much of an issue.

(For track use, where 100% of the time you are either accelerating, or braking, then that's a completely different story).
 
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tryceo

Member
Jun 3, 2019
26
25
CA
Yeah if you're willing to pay for acceleration, all the Tesla products are excellent value compared to their alike-priced competitors. Tesla knows what they're doing in terms of how to market cars. Cars are emotional purchases, and consumers see their car as a reflection of themselves. So consumers really like the idea of performance, which is most easily measured in the 0-60 time - my car is better than yours because the number is lower. Tesla didn't have to make their cars accelerate that fast - this was a shrewd marketing decision. Consumers also like weird gadgets, like falcon wing doors or pop out handles. Even if all the extra performance is utterly useless, or the gadgets are just more points of failure, people have shown time and again they are willing to pay for that sort of thing - all this stuff it really helps with the post hoc rationalization of the purchase.
Honestly, the only good thing I like about Tesla is autopilot. Everything else is meh. I've had tried adaptive cruise control and lane keep, but autopilot is on another level.
 

ibcrypto

Member
Jun 8, 2019
13
2
Los Angeles
As I get closer to buying a Model 3, I had questions about the Performance vs the Long Range version. I test drove both and was impressed with both, and while the Performance seemed crazy fast, I did not notice a big difference between the acceleration of the two. In fact, two Tesla salespeople said that if I wasn’t going to race/rally the car, I should go with the Long Range.

Are there disadvantages to the Performance? So far, I’ve heard the following:

1. Reduction in range, especially for lead-footed people like me. Range is always a consideration - not so much for around town when I will charge at night at my house, but on long trips, when extra miles count. Are there any stats on the loss of range between the two cars or personal observations?

2. Lower to the ground. I am all for protecting the battery, but I assume there is a decent skid plate or frame protection. Correct? And I heard that the difference in height from ground between Long Range and Performance is minor. Is the difference noticeable?

3. Price. I do question whether the $10k premium is worth it. At some point, you have to wonder whether the major upgrades are already met in the Long Range and the extra money for Performance does not result in a payoff for the recreational driver. I don’t want to be like those kids that buy Honda’s and put in thousands of dollars worth of performance add-ons, but are still the same Honda models - just with things the average driver doesn’t need.

The carbon wing is nice looking. As for the heavier duty brakes, several Tesla owners have told me that it’s all about regenerative braking in EVs, and that the goal is to not use the brakes except for the final part of stopping or in emergencies. (thus the statement by Elon about never having to have brake work done). That makes the bigger brakes more eye candy if the car won’t be raced, right?.

Anything else distinguishing the two cars that I have missed? Thanks in advance for your responses. - Rob
 

ibcrypto

Member
Jun 8, 2019
13
2
Los Angeles
I bought the Long Range Dual Motor and returned it after driving the Long Range Performance. The handling and acceleration are well worth if for me. I did not notice much more of a rougher/stiffer ride in the areas I drive. Will probably get a set of 19's. Then throw in Hyper-cooling. Speaking with the Rep he mentioned that the motors that go into the Performance are the top 5%.

Does anyone know if the Performance gets any other special attention on the Production Line?
 
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TMThree

Active Member
Mar 28, 2019
1,116
1,605
USA
Your statement about range is incorrect. My father has the AWD and I have the P. On similar trips at this time of year I generally experience between 240 and 250 Wh/mi on my P and between 235 and 240 Wh/mi on his AWD -- nowhere near a 20% difference. There seems to be this myth out there that the 20" tires make for some radically difference efficiency. This is just not true. The main differentiator IME is driving style. The P BEGS to be driven hard and, if you do, your efficiency will suffer accordingly.

The reason why people think there is a difference is because the EPA test results show there is a difference. Tesla choose to use the AWD EPA numbers for the LR RWD as well as the P variants, but it's only accurate for the AWD. Here are what the rest look like:

Tesla Range Table - Teslike.com

They're done on a dyno, so it removes factors such as temp, altitude, wind differences, driving style etc.

Like it or not, there is a difference.
 
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UngaBunga1989

Member
Dec 30, 2018
279
499
NY Metro Area, United States
The reason why people think there is a difference is because the EPA test results show there is a difference. Tesla choose to use the AWD EPA numbers for the LR RWD as well as the P variants, but it's only accurate for the AWD. Here are what the rest look like:

Tesla Range Table - Teslike.com

They're done on a dyno, so it removes factors such as temp, altitude, wind differences, driving style etc.

Like it or not, there is a difference.

I was referring to the difference in range experienced between an AWD with 19" wheels and my P3D+ with 20" wheels, not the LR RWD. There IS a very large difference between the LR RWD and either AWD variant (P or Non-P), just NOT that big a difference (if you drive them the same way) between the P and non-P AWD...

And the chart that you referenced bears out exactly what I was saying...a 9 mile range differential (or around 3%) between an AWD with 19" wheels and a P3D with 20" wheels...
 
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TMThree

Active Member
Mar 28, 2019
1,116
1,605
USA
And the chart that you referenced bears out exactly what I was saying...a 9 mile range differential (or around 3%) between an AWD with 19" wheels and a P3D with 20" wheels...

Right... it makes sense that if you accelerate the same way, the P and AWD should give the same results with the same rim setup.
 

raptor5244

Active Member
May 10, 2019
1,022
766
Florida
Yes. I drive. Hyundai Sonata from 2016. It has more features and luxuries than a Model 3. For example, front ventilated seats.

Front ventilated seats on most cars barely do anything because they are not actually cooled, they just have a noisy fan in the seat that circulates the cabin air at an attempt to reduce swamp ass. I assume ventilated seats are probably only on the higher end trims as well.

What other features does the Sonata have?
 

kdphan

Member
Jun 14, 2019
104
74
East Bay
Front ventilated seats on most cars barely do anything because they are not actually cooled, they just have a noisy fan in the seat that circulates the cabin air at an attempt to reduce swamp ass. I assume ventilated seats are probably only on the higher end trims as well.

What other features does the Sonata have?
it has ventilated seats man...
and 4 wheels
 

neroden

Model S Owner and Frustrated Tesla Fan
Apr 25, 2011
14,676
62,627
Ithaca, NY, USA
As I get closer to buying a Model 3, I had questions about the Performance vs the Long Range version. I test drove both and was impressed with both, and while the Performance seemed crazy fast, I did not notice a big difference between the acceleration of the two. In fact, two Tesla salespeople said that if I wasn’t going to race/rally the car, I should go with the Long Range.

Are there disadvantages to the Performance? So far, I’ve heard the following:

1. Reduction in range, especially for lead-footed people like me. Range is always a consideration - not so much for around town when I will charge at night at my house, but on long trips, when extra miles count. Are there any stats on the loss of range between the two cars or personal observations?

2. Lower to the ground. I am all for protecting the battery, but I assume there is a decent skid plate or frame protection. Correct? And I heard that the difference in height from ground between Long Range and Performance is minor. Is the difference noticeable?

3. Price. I do question whether the $10k premium is worth it. At some point, you have to wonder whether the major upgrades are already met in the Long Range and the extra money for Performance does not result in a payoff for the recreational driver. I don’t want to be like those kids that buy Honda’s and put in thousands of dollars worth of performance add-ons, but are still the same Honda models - just with things the average driver doesn’t need.

The carbon wing is nice looking. As for the heavier duty brakes, several Tesla owners have told me that it’s all about regenerative braking in EVs, and that the goal is to not use the brakes except for the final part of stopping or in emergencies. (thus the statement by Elon about never having to have brake work done). That makes the bigger brakes more eye candy if the car won’t be raced, right?.

Anything else distinguishing the two cars that I have missed? Thanks in advance for your responses. - Rob

Well, here's one: Insurance companies WILL charge you higher premiums of you buy a "Performance" model rather than a non-Performance model. It's nothing to do with the car... it's to do with the sort of perople who buy Performance models, and how recklessly they tend to drive.
 

raptor5244

Active Member
May 10, 2019
1,022
766
Florida
Well, here's one: Insurance companies WILL charge you higher premiums of you buy a "Performance" model rather than a non-Performance model. It's nothing to do with the car... it's to do with the sort of perople who buy Performance models, and how recklessly they tend to drive.

Insurance premiums will be all over the map depending on a lot of factors. That said, with State Farm the 2019 M3P cost me a little less to insure than my C7 GrandSport Corvette and the $40k M3 SR+ cost more to insure than our $50k GMC Denali.
 

Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
11,644
15,713
NC
Well, here's one: Insurance companies WILL charge you higher premiums of you buy a "Performance" model rather than a non-Performance model. It's nothing to do with the car... it's to do with the sort of perople who buy Performance models, and how recklessly they tend to drive.


Except the P and the AWD have the same VIN code, so there's no way for the insurance company to know which you bought.
 

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