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Drive unit problems explanation by Elon

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Incidentally, you can tell whether you have 2nd generation handles by watching the handles when they extend. The newer version will retract slightly after extending..

You can also tell the because since they didn't relocate the LEDs the new handles light up the inside of the door panel rather than the exterior. When you compare the two the new ones look bad because of that. I've been hoping that they would run out of G2V1 handles and make a proper handle before I get them replaced.
 
One of the most common problems with cars built before spring 2013 is the door handles. Around that time, Tesla began installing 2nd Generation door handles on all new vehicles. Many older cars have since been upgraded with the new handles without charge. Based on my own experience, I imagine that this issue represents a significant portion of warranty repairs. The new handles offer a big ergonomic improvement, and there are no more false triggers or doors that won't open. The new engineering design is simply better.

I had the new door handles installed a couple weeks ago because I complained about difficulty opening the passenger side door. Now, with the new handles, it's the driver's side. On one occasion I even had difficultly closing the door, which hasn't happened a single time before in 34,000 miles of driving. So I wouldn't say that there aren't any more doors that refuse to open.
 
I think we've got great service, but that service is no service.
The underlined should be "the best service".

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Consumers need to use their brains, too. The first-year buyers of a product are *always* guinea pigs.
This reminds me. I have a new suggestion for my "Signature value" wishlist: ultra extended warranty. I'd be happy to pay for an additional 16 year extended warranty if the price isn't insane. Too bad WA sucks so I'll never be offered even 4 years.


Edit:

Perhaps a point of clarification is due...

While I have interest in upgrades/retrofits, enhancements (battery chemistry, supercharging rate), etc., my biggest concern by far is how much it's going to cost me to keep my car in working order for the first 20 years of its life. I haven't heard anything from Tesla recently that makes me less nervous about what happens after year 4 (or 50k miles). I'd like to trust them, but I'm really uncomfortable with the open-ended financial exposure.

Part of the issue is that I don't consider a trade-up "solution" as viable for a Signature combined with the absence of extended warranty for my location. Basically I have no outs other than to pay whatever Tesla decides to charge me for whatever goes wrong with the vehicle after the original warranty expires.

I'm fine buying laptops and replacing them every few years, but not a (Signature) Model S vehicle.


On the plus side, I have very high confidence Tesla will be around, as well as capable and willing to service the vehicle. It's purely a financial concern.
 
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Did you really expect perfection out of the gate for a new car from a new company? Even Lexus admits they haven't achieved it since they are still relentlessly pursuing it. I don't think that means they are a bunch of lairs and we can not trust them any more. Of course early cars have more problems than later ones. If they didn't then that's a bigger problem since that means QC is slipping.

While QC isn't maybe on par with the big companies their service certainly is.

No, I didn't expect perfection. In fact, I bought the car knowing the down sides of buying an unproven car from an unproven company. I knew the risks. However, the battery and drivetrain are core competencies for Tesla. Those components should be free of issues such as the kind we've seen. Elon said the repairs were trivial, so time will tell how truthful he is being. Next year, the story may change...

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While I have interest in upgrades/retrofits, enhancements (battery chemistry, supercharging rate), etc., my biggest concern by far is how much it's going to cost me to keep my car in working order for the first 20 years of its life. I haven't heard anything from Tesla recently that makes me less nervous about what happens after year 4 (or 50k miles). I'd like to trust them, but I'm really uncomfortable with the open-ended financial exposure.

Part of the issue is that I don't consider a trade-up "solution" as viable for a Signature combined with the absence of extended warranty for my location. Basically I have no outs other than to pay whatever Tesla decides to charge me for whatever goes wrong with the vehicle after the original warranty expires.

I'm fine buying laptops and replacing them every few years, but not a (Signature) Model S vehicle.


On the plus side, I have very high confidence Tesla will be around, as well as capable and willing to service the vehicle. It's purely a financial concern.

Tesla could easily address all such concerns with the drivetrain by adding a 100,000 mile drivetrain warranty. If Hyundai can offer such a warranty on a car costing less than half as much, Tesla should be able to do it in a heartbeat. Especially if the issues with the drivetrains are really so minor as Elon says, then there should be no downside and only upside to offering a drivetrain warranty.

So far, I haven't heard anything. In my opinion, if Tesla doesn't add a more robust drivetrain warranty then that speaks to Tesla's financial concerns about drivetrain repair costs after the expiry of the initial 50,000 mile warranty. That should give owners pause. I hope Tesla does the right thing. It did the right thing with the battery warranty by covering fires because it knew that those were few and far between. Enough people were concerned with drivetrain issues that it came up during the quarterly conference call. That concern rose to the level of investors addressing it with the CEO.
 
Having 31,000+ miles on an early car, and expecting a new P85 in October, it will be interesting to note the differences in cars about 50,000 VINs apart. I'll be sure to write up my thoughts on this once I have mileage under my belt in the newer car.

I will look forward to that! Just had a recent-build loaner for 1.5 days, while my annual service as some other items were handled. It was not exactly the same trim as my Signature, but similar enough. I was amazed, actually, how similar the two cars felt. There are certainly improvements, but the soul of the car was baked in from the get-go!

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Let me throw a data point out there from a very early Sig with about 31,000 miles. I've had my windshield replaced, and the driver's door handle, too. Service proactively replaced my 12V battery and have applied TSBs as they came up; for instance I got the improved front vents and the compressor blanket the last time I had the car in for service, and some front end bits were re-torqued when I complained about a creak coming from behind the dash. That's it. I have never been without the car for more than a day. Usually, the service center comes to me, or brings me a loaner and takes my car and I'm not inconvenienced in the least.

So my VIN is one of the 'good' ones, clearly, but remember: just because all the other 'lucky' owners don't post here doesn't mean they don't exist.

Even though our similarly aged and used car had a couple more serious issues (HV junction box and then master charger), my sense of the ownership experience is exactly like this. I miss some of the new options, and the higher supercharger rate, but our "Ruby" is still the finest vehicle we have ever owned and still getting better.

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BTW, in my just completed annual service, my drive unit WAS diagnosed pro-actively with the "milling sound." Since I had given them a deadline for return of the car (due to family commitments), the repair/swap was deferred by mutual agreement. I had heard the slowly increasing sound at 65-70 mph, but forgot to mention it. Our service advisor told me that now ALL cars that come in are being proactively inspected for the drivetrain issues, and sound recordings taken and sent to the factory for analysis. They are on this, big-time.
 
BTW, in my just completed annual service, my drive unit WAS diagnosed pro-actively with the "milling sound." Since I had given them a deadline for return of the car (due to family commitments), the repair/swap was deferred by mutual agreement. I had heard the slowly increasing sound at 65-70 mph, but forgot to mention it. Our service advisor told me that now ALL cars that come in are being proactively inspected for the drivetrain issues, and sound recordings taken and sent to the factory for analysis. They are on this, big-time.

Great!
 
BTW, in my just completed annual service, my drive unit WAS diagnosed pro-actively with the "milling sound." Since I had given them a deadline for return of the car (due to family commitments), the repair/swap was deferred by mutual agreement. I had heard the slowly increasing sound at 65-70 mph, but forgot to mention it. Our service advisor told me that now ALL cars that come in are being proactively inspected for the drivetrain issues, and sound recordings taken and sent to the factory for analysis. They are on this, big-time.

Now I am confused. Is the milling sound not the issue that's fixed with tucking a cable back in and inserting a small shim?
 
@brianman "Too bad WA sucks so I'll never be offered even 4 years"

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What do you mean by this?

This reminds me. I have a new suggestion for my "Signature value" wishlist: ultra extended warranty. I'd be happy to pay for an additional 16 year extended warranty if the price isn't insane. Too bad WA sucks so I'll never be offered even 4 years.


Edit:

Perhaps a point of clarification is due...

While I have interest in upgrades/retrofits, enhancements (battery chemistry, supercharging rate), etc., my biggest concern by far is how much it's going to cost me to keep my car in working order for the first 20 years of its life. I haven't heard anything from Tesla recently that makes me less nervous about what happens after year 4 (or 50k miles). I'd like to trust them, but I'm really uncomfortable with the open-ended financial exposure.

Part of the issue is that I don't consider a trade-up "solution" as viable for a Signature combined with the absence of extended warranty for my location. Basically I have no outs other than to pay whatever Tesla decides to charge me for whatever goes wrong with the vehicle after the original warranty expires.

I'm fine buying laptops and replacing them every few years, but not a (Signature) Model S vehicle.


On the plus side, I have very high confidence Tesla will be around, as well as capable and willing to service the vehicle. It's purely a financial concern.
 
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Now I am confused. Is the milling sound not the issue that's fixed with tucking a cable back in and inserting a small shim?

I've always been confused by the term "milling". I wasn't sure if that meant the "constant whirring whenever >0kW or if it meant the "low hum like a jet engine taking off and landing" or if "milling" meant an entirely different drive unit issue.

So enumerating the drive unit problems that I know of for clarity:

1) high pitch balloon squeal under heavy accel (normal, nothing to fix or replace)

2) low whirring sound similar to high pitch squeal like electrical interference of some sort and it's tied to accelerator pedal whenever > 0kW (my drive unit was replaced for this and was not not referred to as "milling")

3) drive "click" whenever crossing from regen to power or vice versa (was told this is "normal" and nothing to fix)

4) low decibel hum like airplane jet engine taking off and landing (not normal, requires replacement)

5) "milling" or does this refer to one of the above??
 
...Tesla could easily address all such concerns with the drivetrain by adding a 100,000 mile drivetrain warranty. If Hyundai can offer such a warranty on a car costing less than half as much, Tesla should be able to do it in a heartbeat. Especially if the issues with the drivetrains are really so minor as Elon says, then there should be no downside and only upside to offering a drivetrain warranty.....

This I agree with. I think from Tesla's point of view it would sooth a potential PR issue, and presumably they'd refurb the parts, so the overall financial impact would be relatively low. Much is made of the lower number of moving parts in the Model S, but there's lots of them in the drive train, and it's only a matter of time before someone like Hyundai puts together a comparison table showing their drivetrain warranty vs. Tesla's.

Having said all that, Tesla's competitors do not appear to offer the same level of drivetrain warranty as the mainstream players, i.e.

Mercedes - 48k or 4yrs
Porsche - 48k or 4yrs
BMW - Couldn't find it quickly
Audi - 48k or 4yrs

As far as I could see none of them offer a separate drivetrain warranty, so maybe this is an opportunity for Tesla to one-up their direct competitors.
 
4) low decibel hum like airplane jet engine taking off and landing (not normal, requires replacement)

5) "milling" or does this refer to one of the above??

I think (but am not sure) that these two are the same. The service advisor used the term "milling." The key attribute, in my experience, is that this noise is speed dependent, and only appears at around 70+ mph. It is a hum, with a distinct resonant frequency. Ours started maybe 3-6 months ago and was initially quite subtle. Now it is actually quite loud at 70-80 mph. It was actually quite bothersome on the way home from TMC Connect. We were told we would need a swap, so I do not think this is the external cable issue.

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They also said, after I asked specifically, that this is not a sudden failure issue. It is slowly progressive. That is why they were OK with deferring the swap. I will be sure to get it done before my next multi-thousand-mile trip however!
 
I think (but am not sure) that these two are the same. The service advisor used the term "milling." The key attribute, in my experience, is that this noise is speed dependent, and only appears at around 70+ mph. It is a hum, with a distinct resonant frequency. Ours started maybe 3-6 months ago and was initially quite subtle. Now it is actually quite loud at 70-80 mph. It was actually quite bothersome on the way home from TMC Connect. We were told we would need a swap, so I do not think this is the external cable issue.

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They also said, after I asked specifically, that this is not a sudden failure issue. It is slowly progressive. That is why they were OK with deferring the swap. I will be sure to get it done before my next multi-thousand-mile trip however!

FWIW since I had the "whirring" issue, they first tried to replace a bracket mount somewhere and also tried to tuck the cables away both of which were unsuccessful. They had to replace the unit. The new one clicks. But I guess I'm fine with that because it's 1000x less annoying than the whirr.
 
Milling as in the searing sound an industrial milling machine makes. Or more commonly the sound of a neighbor using a table saw or bench router in his garage with door open. Mine reminds me of a twin engine jet taking off from inside the cabin. Or cicadas in the trees. The sound fills brick lined blocks in downtown areas. Begins at 12 mph and reaches peak at 18mph since road noise is increasing at that speed. Backing off accel kills the sound 100%.

Subaru = 60k power train warranty.
..
 
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Milling as in the searing sound an industrial milling machine makes. Or more commonly the sound of a neighbor using a table saw or bench router in his garage with door open. Mine reminds me of a twin engine jet taking off from inside the cabin. Or cicadas in the trees. The sound fills brick lined blocks in downtown areas. Begins at 12 mph and reaches peak at 18mph since road noise is increasing at that speed. Backing off accel kills the sound 100%.
..

Jet engine vs cicadas are two totally different types of sounds. Is it more electrical or mechanical in nature? I'd say jet engine is milling or grinding type sound while cicadas is more like an electrical whirr.
 
@brianman "Too bad WA sucks so I'll never be offered even 4 years"

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What do you mean by this?
No extended warranty available for Model S in WA or FL. After 4 years / 50k miles, good luck.

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No, I didn't expect perfection. In fact, I bought the car knowing the down sides of buying an unproven car from an unproven company. I knew the risks. However, the battery and drivetrain are core competencies for Tesla. Those components should be free of issues such as the kind we've seen.
I mostly agree with you here. Where I disagree is "free of issues". I don't expect the drivetrain and the battery to be free of issues, but I do expect Tesla to strive to make these two components the "least free of worry" in the vehicle. AC flaky? Happens in many cars. Sunroof leaks? Sucks but happens in many cars. Propulsion (and fuel/energy) issues? That's a critical concern.

It's kind of like saying "If you can't get the voice part of your mobile phone to work, then it's a lemon device. If the about box has a font size bug, that's something I don't really care about."
 
2) low whirring sound similar to high pitch squeal like electrical interference of some sort and it's tied to accelerator pedal whenever > 0kW (my drive unit was replaced for this and was not not referred to as "milling")

I'm confused as well about this. I think I have this 'whirling' noise whenever kW > 0. I certainly hear it when the windows are down or if I'm sitting in the back seat, but it is not overtly obvious. It doesn't sound like anything is wrong with the car. Are you saying you're drivetrain was replaced for that?