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Drivetrain 1.0, 1.5, 2.0... Specs? Plans?

Discussion in 'Roadster: Technical' started by TEG, Aug 24, 2008.

  1. Joseph

    Joseph Member

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    On the Tesla Founders blog, I asked, "Is the range of your car then higher than the currently stated range of 244 miles? Or is the range the same but total battery capacity higher in order to have shallower discharges? Do you know when the switch to 2400 mAh done?Sorry if the barrage of questions is rude…"

    And....

    "Martin sez:

    As far as I know, every production Tesla was made with 2400 mAh cells. These are the current “jelly bean” cells, and where the majority of the world’s production is. I am also pretty sure that the final range numbers as reported by Tesla were achieved with a pack that used 2400 mAh cells."

    So I guess the mAh of the battery pack is unrelated to whether it is powertrain 1.5 or powertrain 1.0. And I guess the range has been finalized too.
     
  2. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    Thanks for finding that out Joseph.

    I guess I will have to revise down my 3600mAh range estimates then :frown:
     
  3. malcolm

    malcolm Active Member

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    #23 malcolm, Jan 6, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2009
    Well not necessarily.

    Drivetrain 1.5 seems to have the 2400mAh-based battery pack, the upgraded PEM, the single speed transmission and possibly a motor whose full potential is yet to be realised.

    Will the only significant difference between 1.5 and 2.0 be the new battery? If so, then maybe the technological improvements of the Model S battery can be engineered into the Roadster's pack volume in order to test and refine the new drivetrain before it is installed in the sedan.
     
  4. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    I'm still guessing that DT2.0 might include a liquid cooled eMotor.
     
  5. WarpedOne

    WarpedOne Supreme Premier

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    And also a liquid cooled PEM.
    With these additions and 2600mAh cells, 300 BHP seams reachable.
     
  6. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    What is different about V2? Is it the gearbox? Motor windings? PEM architecture? Software update?

    And what are the results of the V2 changes? Is it acceleration? Speed? Weight? Mileage?

    I understand that the 2009 (2010) car may have performance improvements over the previous model year, but

    1. Does that mean that the 2008 cars are being sold with specs that don't match claims?

    2. If number 1 is true or not, can 2008 Rdstrs be upgraded to V2? And if so, and number 1 is true then it should be at no cost.
     
  7. Kevin Harney

    Kevin Harney Active Member

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    From talking to Elon @ April 1 event here in DC the Roadster is currently coming in at 0-60 times of 4.05 or something close to that.
     
  8. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    #28 TEG, Apr 21, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2009
    I doubt they would consider changing MY2008 cars to MY2010 specs.

    The info on the drive-train changes has been sparse from what I can tell. As best as I can recall it is primarily changes to the motor. Probably cooling, efficiency and cost reduction changes.
    The impact on specs (range & performance) is likely minimal enough that they aren't going to say a whole lot about it.
     
  9. graham

    graham Active Member

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    Yes.
    And no.
    I think by the time they settled on the 3.9 claim they had started taking orders for the 2009s. So a case could be made that they have only ever made that sales claim about the 2009s. I believe earlier versions of the 2008 firmware did hit these acceleration numbers but were causing other problems and had to be backed out. I know they have been trying to make firmware changes and other things to bring the 2008s to that point, but they have thus far been unsuccessful.

    It is my understanding that this will not be made possible. The 1.5 drivetrain will not be upgradable to V2 and the 2008 interior can not be upgraded to the 2009.

    I have hopes that both these decisions will be revisited in the future.

    As much as I would like it so, I seriously doubt that will happen. I believe their current philosophy is that they have already lost lots of money on each 2008 and they will be reluctant to lose more. It would be nice to have the option to pay for an upgrade, however.
     
  10. Tdave

    Tdave Member

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    His quote was "between 4.05 to 4.15 seconds".

    Drivetrain v2 (i.e. 2010 Roadsters) is testing at 3.95 sec. Roadster Sport is testing at 3.75 sec. This was as of Apr 1 according to a discussion on the subject with Elon.
     
  11. Kevin Harney

    Kevin Harney Active Member

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    Thanks for the clarification. I knew you would have remembered the Roadster numbers better than I did. :rolleyes:
     
  12. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    I moved these last several posts from here to a more appropriate thread.

    I'm pretty sure we covered the differences between drivetrain 1.5 and "version 2" elsewhere in the forum. There are many internal details are different, but not much that should be noticeable from the user standpoint.
     
  13. graham

    graham Active Member

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    I am not sure of all the technical changes - but I do know one of the main benefits to Tesla was the cost savings. Moving to DT2.0 was one of the big changes that allowed the Roadster to stop being a net loss to them for every sale.
     
  14. Tdave

    Tdave Member

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    Changes to the 2.0 drivetrain include changes to at least the battery pack and the PEM (according to Elon at the Apr 1 event when I talked to him). That's the reason a retrofit for 2008 Roadsters is not feasible. So the 4.1 sec 2008 cars will always be so. And the 3.95 sec cars (3.75 for the Sport) will start with the 2010 model year.

    (It's been established there's no 2009 model year, right? Just mentioning that in case my mention of model years causes confusion).
     
  15. Lancelac

    Lancelac 2010 Roadster Sport #690

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    Upgrading the 2008s for free (or even for a price since it's an assembly line issue for the interior) seems absurd to me. Tesla made huge changes to the 2009 to try and improve upon the existing model, and much of it based on customer feedback (although the engine was out necessity), instead of waiting the "normal" 3-4 years. Let's not punish them for trying to improve ASAP. If you buy, let's say a BMW M3, and the next year the price increases, but you also get more HP and extras, there is no retrofit. In addition, if you look at carmaker estimates of 0 to 60 accel 1-2 years before the car hits the street, you will often see discrepancies of +/- 0.5 sec all the time.
     
  16. graham

    graham Active Member

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    Err... yes my mistake for continuing to say 2009. 2010 is the proper term now.

    Well "absurd" is a bit strong.

    vfx' complaint seems to be: They sell the Roadster publicly with its big selling point of "0-60 in 3.9 seconds" while none of the cars they have been delivering can actually do that. It is not absurd to expect the company's products to work as advertised.

    If this were GM, more people would be more insistent the company make the change. In this case, this change would likely bankrupt the company. The lucky thing for Tesla in this case is the technicality that they can claim most sales they have made since the 3.9 claims were for 2009 (2010) - they were just not specific that they were not talking about their current product in their claims.

    My wanting of being able to upgrade the interior might be absurd :smile: (but I still want it).
     
  17. Palpatine

    Palpatine Banned

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    Is version 2 something that is in the standard Roadster for the new model year?

    Or is it the improved stator that is in the Roadster Sport? I was not aware of any other changes for the new model year for standard Roadsters.
     
  18. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    #38 doug, Apr 21, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2009
    Yes the base Roadster drivetrain for the new model year (2010MY they're calling it) involves hardware changes in both the motor and the PEM. Perhaps the battery pack as well. As I understand it, these changes mainly affect cost of manufacture but may affect performance some as well.

    The sport motor is different in that the tighter windings means it actually has more copper in it (more current loops) producing higher magnetic fields for the same current (ignoring the marginal extra resistive losses).
     
  19. Palpatine

    Palpatine Banned

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    Does it affect performance in a good way for the 2.0 Roadster compared to the 1.5 Roadster? I can understand Tesla's desire to reduce costs. But did they reduce the normal Roadster performance so it is slower than 4.1 sec 0-60? or anything else?
     
  20. graham

    graham Active Member

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    The performance is actually increased. They say the DT2.0 (non-Sport) will actually hit the 3.9s 0-60.
     

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