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Driving for free

Discussion in 'Charging Standards and Infrastructure' started by heems, Aug 2, 2012.

  1. heems

    heems Member

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  2. SCW-Greg

    SCW-Greg Active Member

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    Nothing is ever really free.

    PGE has a relatively new (I think) Time of Use - three tier alternative, and while it saves you a lot of money at night, it costs you a lot more during the day.

    Standard flat rate:
    6.778 cents first 1000kWh - 7.500 after that

    OR

    Time Of Use:
    On-peak 13.266 cents / kWh
    Mid-peak 7.500
    Off-peak 4.422

    Then add (for either plan above) Distribution charge of 3.116, transmission service of 0.235
    Along with $9.00 basic charge.

    I'm noticing just now that PGE looks to be forcing EV owners to switch to the TOU plan - "enrollment is necessary" it states. I work from home, so this would cost me big, lest I start a night shift.


    I suspect TXU is doing something similar.
     
  3. pete8314

    pete8314 Vendor

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    Last time I checked the TXU plan, it was 10.6 during day, and zero at night. My current plan is 7.2. I havent done all the maths yet, but I think that if I shift some of the higher consumption stuff to overnight (washing machine, dish washer, pool pump), as well as charging, it'll work out pretty well. I also plan to super-cool the house just before 6am, though the family might object :).

    As an aside, Reliant (my current provider) also do a nights and weekend plan, but it's rubbish, 10.3 during the day, and a 1c discount overnight.
     
  4. bmek

    bmek Member

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    PG&E has very complex rate structures, and they are changing the rates constantly.

    The 'best' PG&E rates for EVs are the E-9 rates (both E-9A and E-9B). PG&E was directed by the CPUC to simplify the E-9B rate so they changed both rates. Essentially, PG&E more than doubled the rates through the 'simplification'.

    From my analysis, PG&E is reducoing the top tier rates of electricity while increasing the lower tier rates. This strategy reduces the financial incentives for affluent homeowners with large electricity bills to invest in solar photovoltaic panels.

    Several members of TMC have objected to PG&E's rate increases stating that the marginal cost of electricity at night is $0.00, and EVs should be able to charge at a very low cost during that time.

    TXU has given a competitive example of another utility being able to do exactly that.
     
  5. SCW-Greg

    SCW-Greg Active Member

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    What up with PGE?!?! This is where electricity is made, right here in the Northwest, with all the hydro and wind farms we have along the Columbia and other rivers. We should have some of the cheapest power anywhere, but with rates like ours that I'm seeing you guys post... I now want to move to Texas. Who knew?!
     
  6. bmek

    bmek Member

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    This is from another thread, which tells the story on PG&E's rates.
     
  7. Incredulocious

    Incredulocious '11 LEAF –> '13 RAV4 EV

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    Based on bmek's profile (Monte Sereno, CA), PGE refers to our Pacific Gas & Electric in California not your Portland General Electric in Oregon. We're not in the northwest and not as close as you think (it's a big and tall state), this is the middle of California (SF Bay Area), though it's usually called Northern California just to differentiate from Southern Cal. And no, we don't have the cheap electric rates you have in Oregon and Washington. We have a large population (lots of consumption) with some hydro and nuclear but lots of natural gas plants, but we still import a lot of electricity - some from the Pacific Northwest.

    Here's a quote:
     
  8. SCW-Greg

    SCW-Greg Active Member

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    Yeah I understood our (OR) PGE vs CA's PGE, and I know our PGE exports a lot of our power to other states... but I'm blown away by the rates that Pete put up about Texas.
     
  9. pete8314

    pete8314 Vendor

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    Well, I just checked at TXU, this is the EFL for the nights and weekends deal. Looks like it's gone up a bit more, 11.9c, and free overnight. I used 2591KWh last month, but the average temp was 'only' 95f, this month will be worse. Best guess based on winter bills is that my run-rate, without AC, is about 1200Kwh per month, and I think I can move the majority of that to overnight, plus the car charging, of course.

    The other upside is that I don't have to run aorund turning off lights that the rest of the household leave on, at least between 10pm-6 :)
     
  10. Tesla 940

    Tesla 940 Member

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    At first I thought the 2,591 KWh for a month was a typo! :eek: My total consumption last month was about 500 KWh.:smile: I guess there is some benefit to living in So Cal and near the coast!:biggrin:
     
  11. pete8314

    pete8314 Vendor

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    Yeah...your house is probably better built than most in Texas too, and you get bonus points if you can get your family to close doors, turn off the TV and shut out lights when not needed! It's a constant battle....and don't get me started about how they want the AC cranked up, but then wrap themselves in blankets to watch TV.
     
  12. Zythryn

    Zythryn MS 70D, MX 90D

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    I wish ours was that low;). We typically use almost 500kwh just to charge our cars ($35 vs $200 for gas, definitely a win). In winter we do peak around 2500kwh, although we are working to bring that down.

    If I ever move from MN, we would look for a more moderate climate to avoid the extremes.
     
  13. Timothy

    Timothy Driving on Sunshine

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    We can all drive for free. I am. Solar panels are in and just finishing third year. And Southern California Edison has owes ME money for each of these three years! Driving on Sunshine (with minor capital investment at first :wink:)
     
  14. SCW-Greg

    SCW-Greg Active Member

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    Right on Timothy! If you don't mind me asking, what is your payback period for the investment? How many KW did you have installed?
     
  15. Timothy

    Timothy Driving on Sunshine

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    Payback for me is about 10 years. I have an 8.4 kW system. I save about $2 grand a year on gasoline costs. But with the Tesla costing over $100 K that's a lot of years to break even! But it is great fun to look down your nose at one's liberal friends who don't have solar panels or an electric car!

    BTW although government rebates for solar installations have decreased, the cost of the solar panels has plumetted, so the total out of pocket cost and payback times for solar installations is much better now than when I put mine in 3 years ago.
     
  16. SCW-Greg

    SCW-Greg Active Member

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    Yeah I had Solar World come out and do an estimate for me, I think 8.7kW. They're really pushing themselves as augmenting the power company model (reduced rates, but paying them over time). They're not encouraging you to buy outright. They claim it's a $40k install (don't believe that for a minute). I'm hearing numbers that suggest it should be closer $8 or $9k installed. I have another company coming out on Monday to give me another quote. I'm looking for a 6 to 7 year payback, better still if can get to 5. Then it really is a no brainer at that point (assuming you're in the house for a bit, let alone resale value).
     
  17. wycolo

    wycolo Active Member

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    > solar installation is much better [& cheaper] now than when I put mine in 3 years ago. [Timothy]

    In a few months I will become a Tesler (collector of Teslas) so now would be a good time certainly to jump aboard the Solar Train by buying a working number of panels + electronics. Working in the sense that it would be capable of charging a Tesla at least as fast as the Basic Cable ([email protected]). In future I could double the capacity to charge at ([email protected]). And so on.

    Solar preferred over wind due to fewer moving parts and being no higher than roof level. Plus solar should have less down time.

    Local electric co-op is almost antagonistic toward BEVs. Certainly in a complete state of denial. Two full page ads in monthly mag has 50 photos total, none of which shows electric vehicles. Not even a golf cart. No WY State incentives at all. Possibility of political backlash certainly exists. Such as surcharging for road use, surcharging for KWHs, harassing via type of vehicle registration, etc. Being off-grid capable seems the best deflector for any such assaults.

    What are the latest, greatest panels & controllers?? Anyone keep up with this?? No salesmen, please, no Solar Worlds knocking at my door. I'm willing to drive to regional distributor & load up the truck. Part numbers and mfrs!!
    --
     
  18. bonnie

    bonnie Oil is for sissies.

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    I have a 13.4 kW system, Enlighten microinverters ... powering my house, my Roadster, heating the hot tub and running the pool. I'm still fine-tuning the tree trimming to maximize the output, but it's close to optimized. I received a rebate just over $3K from PG&E, will have a great tax deduction, and will receive payment from PG&E at the annual true up. Right now it's looking like my system will be paid for in 6-7 years.
     
  19. wycolo

    wycolo Active Member

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    > I have a 13.4 kW system, Enlighten microinverters . . . [from Bonnie]

    Home Depot's biggest package is nominally 10kw but rated 7.2kw to 16.8kw per year which, I'm guessing, depends on location & local exposure. No trees here @7400 ft. Map from <energyatlas.org> indicates 5.5 annual average at my location in south central WY (units??). So right off the bat I've found a kit that seems to ballpark yours, designed for typical 2400 sq ft house. Made by company in Eugene OR, so they know a thing or two about cloudy/rainy weather. No reviews yet at HD on this package, but the individual 250 watt panels did get a few good reviews. Point being these are probably the latest & greatest panel technology available. Requires 710 sq ft total, or some 36ft x 10ft on each roof gable. 40 panels in all, 30.7 volts. Returnable for 90 days. Includes 2 inverters & 2 combiners. No mention of storage batteries, so maybe none required since it is always 'on grid'.

    Hey, it's something to focus on. Seems entirely DIY, right up my alley. Comments welcomed of course.
    --
     
  20. Timothy

    Timothy Driving on Sunshine

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    In California the situation is different. If you are off the grid, you don't get the rebates. So that is an advantage of being on grid. On the grid you generate electricity at a high price (time of use metering) and use it at a low price--cost effective. My rates go down (Southern California Edison) at 6 p.m. so that is when I set my car to start charging. We did an analysis and use 81% of our electricity off peak--ideal for time of use metering.

    I would recommend getting bids from at least 3 big companies before you decide. Small local companies have the habit of going out of business. I ended up with REC Solar and they did a good job. I also used Sun Run. They leased me the system REC put in. I chose an 18 year lease all paid up in front. I can buy it out at a low agreed upon price at the end of the lease if I choose. (I will.) But you can pay monthly if you prefer. The advantage of leasing is that if anything goes wrong, Sun Run pays to fix it. Microinverters weren't available when I put my system in so I have one larger inverter. The inverters last about 8-10 years so SunRun will have to replace mine when it dies. And if a cow falls out of the sky and lands on the array--Sun Run repairs it!
     

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