Dual chargers

[Canuck]

As for the speculation that making the Dual Chargers an Accessory will streamline manufacturing is absurd.

Not speculation from my sources, as that is what I was told with in Tesla when I initially couldn't get the Dual Charger option in my MS order, at the end of March. So if you believe it is speculation, it is fueled by the Tesla Delivery Specialist staff.

No, I personally don't work at Tesla however my source set up the initial Fremont production line and knows the MS intimately.

So is your source the "Tesla Delivery Specialist staff" or the person who "set up the initial Fremont production line and knows the MS intimately", or both, or is this the same person? The fact that you're all over the place with your sources makes me question your claims. Plus, according to Green Car Reports, Tesla is killing options to streamline production:

"This helps us streamline the manufacturing and supply chain logistics and enables us to better ramp production," Elon Musk told analysts during Tesla's recent third-quarter earnings call.
2014 Tesla Model S: Killing 3 Versions, 2 Colors, Some Options

The reasoning in this article makes the most sense to me and none of it is "absurd" at all.

... Now the best incentive for people to install dual chargers, which is the rapid expansion of the destination charging program, is being wasted by lack of awareness of dual chargers when prospective buyers look down the options list on the web site. High amp level 2's have been rare with exceptions such as Sun Country Highway-- but Tesla could have helped solve this chicken and egg problem by encouraging rather than discouraging the purchase of cars with dual chargers.

+1

 

[jerry33]

Seems to me that given average use, 80A AC will be a high-end, marginal option.

Except that for the foreseeable future there will be many routes that aren't covered by Superchargers and the 70-80 amp A/C makes those routes doable. Although I haven't used my twin chargers on every trip, when I did use them, I was sure glad they were there. There's a big difference between eight hours at an RV park in the middle of the day and 3.5 hours at a HPWC.

My most frequently traveled route is 625 miles (one way). Using SCs it's 785 miles. Now, sure, it's still faster to use SCs, but if there was an HPWC at the destination, the trip would only be 645 miles. Twenty miles more rather than 160 miles more. I'd really like to see a lot more HPWCs at destinations.

 

[Cottonwood]

I regularly drive from Pagosa Spring, CO to Boulder, CO. It is about 225 miles of mountain driving from my Pagosa house to the Supercharger in Silverthorne. While I can do that drive on a single charge in good weather, it's nice to have insurance. Because there is a 70 Amp J1772 in Salida, CO, and I have dual chargers, I have an easy place to top up in bad weather. Going to Pagosa, I have to drive over Wolf Creek Pass from Salida, and driving to Silverthorne, I have to go over Fremont Pass to Silverthorne. When the snow is flying on either one of those passes, it's really nice to top up at 50 mph in Salida.

I love having dual chargers in my Teslas! The only way that I would give them up, is if Tesla installed a Supercharger in Salida, CO or somewhere else on my route. I think that may take a few years...

 

[beeeerock]

When I ponder this question, a few thoughts come to mind.

1) If you're travelling a long distance and need to charge from almost empty up to full, 40 amps won't cut it. And realistically, neither will 80. You might as well stop for the night, because it'll be dark before you're charged and ready to go again.

2) Supercharging or Fast DC is really the only solution for 'travelling through'. And even that is on the edge of acceptable for the masses... it will get better (will have to get better) to wean people from their ICE's.

3) As EV's become more common, the need for more destination chargers will increase. It won't be a feature requested by the odd guest once in a while - it'll be needed by half the guests, and eventually all of them (we hope!). What will the electric service to the hotel or motel look like? Yes, battery packs may be larger by then, but we must also assume that the build out of Superchargers and Fast DC chargers will have occurred as well. 40 amps might not fill the battery pack of the future, but unless the cars become extremely bloated, 40 amps overnight will get you on your way again, perhaps to a Supercharger or equivalent. It should get you as far as it does today.

Unless we expect to see a substation outside of every hotel and motel, there will have to be some limit to what current draw is required for the parking lot charge stations. Making 80 amps the typical standard means a whopping big service to the facility. 40 amps is bad enough! I don't think it's reasonable to set unrealistic expectations for properties that have finite electrical capabilities. The electrical upgrades both on and off site would be formidable! It makes more sense to build out the Superchargers and equivalent, because they will be new infrastructure that can be built with the future needs in mind. AC charging will simply be the backup plan. Perhaps Tesla is trying to get us used to that idea by downplaying the double charger option.

 

[m6bigdog]

So is your source the "Tesla Delivery Specialist staff" or the person who "set up the initial Fremont production line and knows the MS intimately", or both, or is this the same person? The fact that you're all over the place with your sources makes me question your claims. Plus, according to Green Car Reports, Tesla is killing options to streamline production:

"This helps us streamline the manufacturing and supply chain logistics and enables us to better ramp production," Elon Musk told analysts during Tesla's recent third-quarter earnings call.
2014 Tesla Model S: Killing 3 Versions, 2 Colors, Some Options

The reasoning in this article makes the most sense to me and none of it is "absurd" at all.



+1

If you think I have a reason to lie on the forum please just ignore what I post and we will both be better off.
Also, I live 20 miles form the Fremont Tesla Motors production plant and 30 miles away from the Tesla Motors corporate offices, so excuse me if I'm vague about who and how many individuals I know that work for Tesla.

I only mentioned the Dual Charger option, so please don't expand that into something else you understand from others sources trying to explain the bigger issue of expanding Tesla's production numbers.

The Dual Charger Option is 2 of the identical part that will be installed in every MS during productions regardless of other options, so there is no supply chain logistics involved.

 

[mknox]

1) If you're travelling a long distance and need to charge from almost empty up to full, 40 amps won't cut it. And realistically, neither will 80. You might as well stop for the night, because it'll be dark before you're charged and ready to go again.

2) Supercharging or Fast DC is really the only solution for 'travelling through'. And even that is on the edge of acceptable for the masses... it will get better (will have to get better) to wean people from their ICE's

For my first two summers of ownership I came to absolutely rely on a 70 amp J1772 station when I took weekend trips to a friend's cottage. The round trip was a bit beyond my car's range, so I would stop for an hour on either the way there or the way back and grab a bite or a coffee. An hour was tolerable. If it was a 24 amp or 30 amp station, it would really be intolerable. It wasn't about "empty-to-full" but about getting that extra jolt to make it home.

To your point #2 above, there is now a Supercharger en route so that has indeed addressed the "travelling through" argument.

 

[beeeerock]

For my first two summers of ownership I came to absolutely rely on a 70 amp J1772 station when I took weekend trips to a friend's cottage. The round trip was a bit beyond my car's range, so I would stop for an hour on either the way there or the way back and grab a bite or a coffee. An hour was tolerable. If it was a 24 amp or 30 amp station, it would really be intolerable. It wasn't about "empty-to-full" but about getting that extra jolt to make it home.

Would it be fair to say that had you been able to destination charge at the cottage, even at a modest single charger rate, you could have avoided the stop? If so, would that suggest that the lack of a destination charger was really the issue, and the single/dual question would almost be moot?

 

[mknox]

Would it be fair to say that had you been able to destination charge at the cottage, even at a modest single charger rate, you could have avoided the stop? If so, would that suggest that the lack of a destination charger was really the issue, and the single/dual question would almost be moot?

Yes, that's fair. Unfortunately it isn't easily possible, although on one occasion he allowed me to pull out his stove and run my 50' 14-50 extension cord out through a window so I could charge up and not have to stop on the way home.

I have always felt that the power of the charging station should be inversely proportional to the typical length of stay at it. For instance, destination charging at an airport could easily be just Level 1 (120 volt outlet) since the car would typically be parked there for a long time. A 30 amp J1772 is likely more than adequate for an overnight hotel stay. But for a restaurant stop, 80 amps is really handy so that you can recover a decent amount of range in an hour or so. This, I guess, is the point I was trying to make in favor of dual chargers: if you need a quick top up on the way, and you have access to high power Level 2 stations like I do, the dual charger option is a no brainer.

 

[Larry Chanin]

In a world where BEV is king, you will want fast DC chargers everywhere.

True, but what we want and what is affordable is two different things.
With all due deference to your handle, ItIsAboutTheMoney. :biggrin:

The least expensive DC "fast" charger is the CHAdeMO charger being installed at BMW dealerships.

The BMW subsidized price for BMW dealerships is $6548.

This DC fast charger only has a capacity of 24 kW

It weighs 125 pounds

It's dimensions are 31"x19"x12"


In contrast the Tesla High Power Wall Connector retails for $750.

It has a capacity almost as much at 20 kW.

It weighs 20 pounds

It's dimensions are 15"x 6.22"x3.7"


So if we installed 1000 of the BMW DC fast chargers we would have 24,000 kW of capacity for the charger cost of $6,548,000.

If we installed 1200 HPWCs we would have the same 24,000 kW of capacity for a charger cost of only $900,000, or less than 14% of the cost.


That's just charger costs. The installation cost are going to be much worse. The CHAdeMO is going to need a 480 volt service, the HPWC is only going to need 208 or 240 volt service. How many guys does it take to mount a 125 pound piece of equipment versus a 20 pound piece of equipment?


The point is that it is not an either DC Fast Charging or AC charging proposition. Tesla is doing the prudent thing, they are devoting serious resources to doing both.

Larry

 

[Canuck]

If you think I have a reason to lie on the forum please just ignore what I post and we will both be better off.

It's a public forum. If you post inconsistent information you will get called out. That's not something I can or will ignore.

Also, I live 20 miles form the Fremont Tesla Motors production plant and 30 miles away from the Tesla Motors corporate offices, so excuse me if I'm vague about who and how many individuals I know that work for Tesla.

Well that explains it. So you know Tesla like Sara Palin knows Russia.

 

[beeeerock]

I have always felt that the power of the charging station should be inversely proportional to the typical length of stay at it. For instance, destination charging at an airport could easily be just Level 1 (120 volt outlet) since the car would typically be parked there for a long time. A 30 amp J1772 is likely more than adequate for an overnight hotel stay. But for a restaurant stop, 80 amps is really handy so that you can recover a decent amount of range in an hour or so. This, I guess, is the point I was trying to make in favor of dual chargers: if you need a quick top up on the way, and you have access to high power Level 2 stations like I do, the dual charger option is a no brainer.

Agreed. I've got only the single charger and I'm already wondering if I'll need to buck up for a second one to make trips workable... haven't needed the second one yet, but I'm sure the day will come.

However, I think that Tesla making the second charger less available, or pushing it less, might be their way of trying to train us how to plan trips and charge accordingly. As the SC network builds, a *really* quick charge will be more available and logically, preferred even over the 80 amp double charger scenario. Destination charging would therefore become more realistic, at lower charge rates. The infrastructure beyond Tesla's control would eventually take issue with the heavy demand for 80 amp charging stations. Imagine a typical hotel or motel, with an approximate number of rooms of 40. It's got the 'no vacancy' sign flashing and the car park is full of EV's. Not all will need a charge, but if 75% do... at 80 amps... that would be 2,400 amps! Likely way more than the electric utility allowed for when they ran in a circuit for lights, hot water tanks and some wall mount air conditioners... not to mention the panels and private side wiring.

The backlash that could result wouldn't be favour of EV's... something we'd best avoid I think. I'm guessing Tesla is already thinking out into the future when EV's exist in real numbers. As the first guys out of the gate, they have the ability to form the EV culture and I suspect this could be part of it.

 

[SW2Fiddler]

...the 80 amp double charger scenario. Destination charging would therefore become more realistic, at lower charge rates. The infrastructure beyond Tesla's control would eventually take issue with the heavy demand for 80 amp charging stations. Imagine a typical hotel or motel, with an approximate number of rooms of 40. It's got the 'no vacancy' sign flashing and the car park is full of EV's. Not all will need a charge, but if 75% do... at 80 amps... that would be 2,400 amps! Likely way more than the electric utility allowed for when they ran in a circuit for lights, hot water tanks and some wall mount air conditioners... not to mention the panels and private side wiring.

The backlash that could result wouldn't be favour of EV's... something we'd best avoid I think.

Eeeek!
All righty then. Convinced I am. Rep Point given, even.
I hereby take the pledge, that if the above horror story happens at a hotel I'm staying at, I will dial down my Amperage to a more realistic charge rate, say 39A or lower.
Because you can totally DO that with dual chargers. (You just can't do the opposite with single...)
Wouldn't want Amp Rage BackLash after all.

Rick

#AmpRage #CalmYourDuals

 

[jerry33]

Right now hotels only put in a couple of HPWCs. By the time they need most of their spaces electrified, I suspect Elon will have sold them a PowerPack to accommodate the charging. For hotels, yes, you only really need 40 or 50 amps as most folks stay for at least six hours. For shorter destinations, a movie theatre for instance, 80 amps would be preferred.

 

[Larry Chanin]

I agree with all of these points, but Tesla is compounding the confusion by marketing a destination charging program using HPWCs that can deliver 80A while selling cars that can only accept 40A unless the owner makes an effort to have dual chargers installed. It used to be the effort was just checking a box on the order page, now most mainstream buyers wouldn't even know the dual charging option exists and they won't get it installed at the service center if they aren't aware of it. Then they find a 80A HPWC at a destination and wonder why they only get 40A.

Too many people mistakenly thought they needed dual chargers to supercharge at the fastest rate and purchased the option when they had no need for it. That was a failure of education on Tesla's part and a failure of researching on the buyer's part. Now the best incentive for people to install dual chargers, which is the rapid expansion of the destination charging program, is being wasted by lack of awareness of dual chargers when prospective buyers look down the options list on the web site. High amp level 2's have been rare with exceptions such as Sun Country Highway-- but Tesla could have helped solve this chicken and egg problem by encouraging rather than discouraging the purchase of cars with dual chargers.

This is exactly how I feel.

In my view Tesla has made a short-term mistake with this policy in the belief that it makes the ordering process less confusing. That may be true in the short term, but it will create more confusion later when owners belatedly discover that their cars can't fully benefit from the burgeoning Destination Charging Network.

I believe that relatively soon Tesla will realize that this policy is not in their or their customer's best interest and they will do a better job of educating prospective owners to the pros and cons of having dual on-board chargers.

In Tesla's partial defense, prior to this change it cost $3,600 to have the second charger retrofitted. Now it is only $2,000. Still it is costing new owners $500 more than what it used to cost if ordering the dual charger as part of a factory install. Unfortunately, the fact remains, as TexasEV so correctly points out, that this policy obscures the availability of an option that will become increasingly more important as the Destination Charging network quickly expands.

Larry

 

[andrewket]

The advantage of dual chargers when using destination EVSEs is not just to the owner with dual chargers, but also to the owner of the second car who needs to charge overnight at the same destination.

If you're charging overnight 40A is fine. If two cars want to charge overnight and both cars only have a single charger, now you're in trouble. It would be very frustrating to have an EVSE capable of 80A, have a car with dual chargers, and to get stuck behind a car with a single charger.

The argument is similar to the one made when Tesla increased the supercharger cabinets from 120kW to 135kW. Yes, you might get above 120kW briefly (if you have a pack =>B) and shave off a few minutes from your charge time. The real advantage is that there is 15 additional kW to split between the two cars. This benefits everyone.

 

[mknox]

Agreed. I've got only the single charger and I'm already wondering if I'll need to buck up for a second one to make trips workable... haven't needed the second one yet, but I'm sure the day will come.

Yes, I think it's a decision to be based around your planned travel routes and what infrastructure is available to you. Others have told me (in other threads) that a CHAdeMO adapter is money better spent over dual chargers. Problem is, in my case there are no CHAdeMO chargers on the routes I take but tons of high power J1772 stations. You may never come across the need for dual chargers just as I may never come across the need for a CHAdeMO adapter.

The infrastructure beyond Tesla's control would eventually take issue with the heavy demand for 80 amp charging stations. Imagine a typical hotel or motel, with an approximate number of rooms of 40. It's got the 'no vacancy' sign flashing and the car park is full of EV's. Not all will need a charge, but if 75% do... at 80 amps... that would be 2,400 amps! Likely way more than the electric utility allowed for when they ran in a circuit for lights, hot water tanks and some wall mount air conditioners... not to mention the panels and private side wiring.

I always try co council folks to install the highest capacity station that they can, but you make a good point here. At a hotel, maybe two 30 or 40 amp J1772 stations would make more sense than 1 - 80 amp station. In some ways I like the 1 - 80 amp model because someone needing a quick(er) charge can get it, and if you have overnight guests, the first one can unplug in half the time and allow guest #2 access.

It's interesting that Tesla is pushing HPWCs (80 amp devices) for destinations like hotels, although they can be configured for lower output.

 

[Cottonwood]

Here is an analysis of charge time with and without dual chargers on a gap in the I-90 route, assuming 80 Amp HPWC's available. There is a dramatic reduction in charge time with dual chargers. There are 80 Amp HPWC's in Sheridan, but not in Gillette, yet. On the other hand, there are two 70 Amp J1772's available in Casper for a similar problem going Denver (I-25) and heading west on I-90.

Crowd Funding an HPWC in Sheridan, WY — Casper and Gillette to Possibly Follow - Page 5

 

[SW2Fiddler]

So many of y'all seem to give TM no credit for logical thought and grasp-o'-the-obvious.

I just find it hard to envision Tesla Motors birthing the Model X with a default 10kWh charging speed limit. TM does NOT like their products to be perceived as speed limited. Their modus operandi has been to leap right past the limitations of current paradigms (yeah, you betcha, pun INTENDED) and "stick the landing" on a new standard.
When the dust settles, everyone says, "oh, yeah, that makes sense!" (except the man-I-bought-mine-a-week-too-soon buyers )

As goes the X onboard charger, so goes the S charger. Same assembly line y'know.

Single Charger will go the way of the 60kWh battery and for the same reason. Unless it's a new, more efficient, single 20kW (or greater!) unit.

~sets down the mic carefully as a projector nerd would~

Rick

 

[mknox]

Single Charger will go the way of the 60kWh battery and for the same reason. Unless it's a new, more efficient, single 20kW (or greater!) unit.

Don't disagree with the sentiment, but the facts seem to support the opposite. Dual chargers used to at least be a factory option, and now they are not. You can have a second charger installed by the Service Center, but even that is not widely publicized. I have to wonder if Tesla is going to settle for 10 kW on-board Level 2 charging on the assumption that it's enough for home use, and a more extensive Supercharger network will handle all of the away-from-home needs.

 

[m6bigdog]

It's a public forum. If you post inconsistent information you will get called out. That's not something I can or will ignore.



Well that explains it. So you know Tesla like Sara Palin knows Russia.

Yes, it is the internet and you can type what ever you want no matter how absurd.
Zero inconsistencies, you will just want to go back and reread my replies until you understand that.
But still, you need to get a life!!