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Dual Fatality Model S Crash/Fire: Fort Lauderdale, FL May 8, 2018
- Thread starter DaveK.
- Start date
You flood lithium with water, tons of it.
Halon is acceptable for cabin fires. Far safer than CO2. Far more effective than powder. Aqueous foam is another good fire suppressant around humans. That's what I use. It does use CO2 but not a huge amount.
Halon has no effect on a lithium fire. The FAA verified this.
Water cools the battery down enough to stop the thermal runaway.
Halon is acceptable for cabin fires. Far safer than CO2. Far more effective than powder. Aqueous foam is another good fire suppressant around humans. That's what I use. It does use CO2 but not a huge amount.
Halon has no effect on a lithium fire. The FAA verified this.
Water cools the battery down enough to stop the thermal runaway.
GatorGuy
Member
Thank you. There is a big difference between fire suppression and extinguishing. I have no interest in fighting a fire. If there isn't a person involved any car can sit there and burn for all I care. I'm not interested in saving property, only lives.
And ICE vehicles catch on fire far more than people realize. But usually you have time to get out any passengers before the fire.
Halon is one of the most effective fire suppressors against lithium ion fires. In fact, the first step the FAA advises for lithium fire is to use a halon fire extinguisher. It is more than capable of extinguishing burning electrolytes but it does not stop thermal runaway. Like I said above, I don't care about putting the fire out fully. Just stopping it enough to get someone out.
https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/avi...afety/safo/all_safos/media/2009/safo09013.pdf
https://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/sys...0513-ExtinguishmentofLithiumBatteriesrev2.pdf
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Tam
Well-Known Member
NTSB looks into fatal Tesla crash in Florida
Los Angeles Fire Department were vocal about the difficulty of fighting last Tesla fire.
The press has not covered any complaints from fire department from this Florida case so it is strange that NTSB is now soliciting for any fire problem in this Florida case also.
Los Angeles Fire Department were vocal about the difficulty of fighting last Tesla fire.
The press has not covered any complaints from fire department from this Florida case so it is strange that NTSB is now soliciting for any fire problem in this Florida case also.
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After actual testing, the FAA changed their policy. You can see it in your second document (first doc is 2009):
FAA 2014
– Tests done at the FAA showed that water was effective at extinguishing burning electrolyte from lithium-ion cells as well as stopping the propagation of thermal runaway.
– Halon 1211 was effective in extinguishing burning electrolyte from lithium-ion cells, but was ineffective in stopping the propagation of thermal runaway.
– Halon 1301 was also effective in extinguishing burning electrolyte from lithium-ion cells, but was ineffective in stopping the propagation of thermal runaway.
– Ice was not effective at preventing thermal runaway when placed directly on a laptop keyboard.
Horrible accident. Very sad for the friends and family - and witnesses.
On an average day 100 people die in car accidents in the USA. Worldwide it is over 3000.
So it is a legitimate question as to why Tesla accidents are so widely reported on. Normally that would only appear in the local news.
On an average day 100 people die in car accidents in the USA. Worldwide it is over 3000.
So it is a legitimate question as to why Tesla accidents are so widely reported on. Normally that would only appear in the local news.
Very sad to hear this - heartbreaking.
This is a 30mph road - how fast can they be going? even if double - say 60mph, in one of the safest cars in the world - not able to get out of it alive - is really sad to hear, and scary to think of what-if-I-was-in-there scenarios. I would hope Tesla scientists work harder to innovate on fire-control mechanisms - some (bad) ideas:
* fire-resistant chemistry
* tougher shell to prevent intrusions into battery compartment
* chemicals built into battery case (or situated closely) to spill onto cells in case of intrusion (to delay fire spreads) - e.g. if crash sensors detect severe accidents - and airbags deploy - the fire-retardant chemical container can be opened and spilled onto the battery
* mechanisms to auto-open operational doors/trunks and auto-cut belts (after vehicle comes to rest) to give able occupants higher chance to exit
* have a mechanism to eject the entire battery if car gets airborne (partially or fully) - of course - many corner cases need to be considered...
* most accidents that start fire seem to be due to too-much forward intrusion (hitting tree, hitting wall etc.) - Tesla may want to consider re-positioning the battery cell to have slightly more pushed back (heading into trunk area, instead of front battery cells like in 100KWh packs, may be actually reduce the battery capacity so as not to have cells getting outside of the 4 wheels area
* AP to take action (even if AP is not ON) and force braking (or other maneuvers) to save lives - isn't that the main purpose - AP is designed to make driving safer - so take action - don't just watch the driver hit a wall when AP could have applied brakes?
I don't know. I am just throwing out ideas after reading these really sad news. I am hoping Tesla is innovating here and will build the safest car in the world. May be German makers (MB/Porsche) actually innovate on battery safety and come up with something ahead of Tesla and catch them blindsided. It will be good for the entire industry and a little competition will be healthy for Tesla too.
This is a 30mph road - how fast can they be going? even if double - say 60mph, in one of the safest cars in the world - not able to get out of it alive - is really sad to hear, and scary to think of what-if-I-was-in-there scenarios. I would hope Tesla scientists work harder to innovate on fire-control mechanisms - some (bad) ideas:
* fire-resistant chemistry
* tougher shell to prevent intrusions into battery compartment
* chemicals built into battery case (or situated closely) to spill onto cells in case of intrusion (to delay fire spreads) - e.g. if crash sensors detect severe accidents - and airbags deploy - the fire-retardant chemical container can be opened and spilled onto the battery
* mechanisms to auto-open operational doors/trunks and auto-cut belts (after vehicle comes to rest) to give able occupants higher chance to exit
* have a mechanism to eject the entire battery if car gets airborne (partially or fully) - of course - many corner cases need to be considered...
* most accidents that start fire seem to be due to too-much forward intrusion (hitting tree, hitting wall etc.) - Tesla may want to consider re-positioning the battery cell to have slightly more pushed back (heading into trunk area, instead of front battery cells like in 100KWh packs, may be actually reduce the battery capacity so as not to have cells getting outside of the 4 wheels area
* AP to take action (even if AP is not ON) and force braking (or other maneuvers) to save lives - isn't that the main purpose - AP is designed to make driving safer - so take action - don't just watch the driver hit a wall when AP could have applied brakes?
I don't know. I am just throwing out ideas after reading these really sad news. I am hoping Tesla is innovating here and will build the safest car in the world. May be German makers (MB/Porsche) actually innovate on battery safety and come up with something ahead of Tesla and catch them blindsided. It will be good for the entire industry and a little competition will be healthy for Tesla too.
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Canuck
Well-Known Member
So sad. My thoughts go out to their loved ones. The worst thing that can happen to me is to lose a child and these people have to live with that nightmare as a reality. I hope they have support to help them through.
You have it backwards when it comes to be being blindsided:
Tesla Model S outsells German luxury flagships in Europe
German automakers are the masters of the ICE. They make them better than anyone and they have it down to an art form. They also have no use for, or interest in, batteries at all except to comply with regulators when it comes to compliance vehicles, and to feign interest on an environmental level while at the same time making software to fool regulators and poison the public with diesel, or at least one of those German automakers did that. So to think they will be making safer battery technology is wishful thinking at least in my view. The fact that they haven't even applied for one permit to install a fast charging network anywhere in the world speaks volumes to me about their view on batteries.
You have it backwards when it comes to be being blindsided:
Tesla Model S outsells German luxury flagships in Europe
German automakers are the masters of the ICE. They make them better than anyone and they have it down to an art form. They also have no use for, or interest in, batteries at all except to comply with regulators when it comes to compliance vehicles, and to feign interest on an environmental level while at the same time making software to fool regulators and poison the public with diesel, or at least one of those German automakers did that. So to think they will be making safer battery technology is wishful thinking at least in my view. The fact that they haven't even applied for one permit to install a fast charging network anywhere in the world speaks volumes to me about their view on batteries.
GatorGuy
Member
Please link their change in policy. The 2nd document only shows results from tests and nothing about a change in policy.
What is your argument here? Halon isn't an effective fire suppressor for lithium fires? Clearly it is effective. It is recommended as first line by the FAA. By the FAA results, it extinguished the electrolyte fire which is the goal of a fire suppressor.
Will it stop thermal runaway and put out a lithium fire? No. But that isn't the goal. And nothing has been stated otherwise.
GatorGuy
Member
I would imagine that the battery is exposed in most of these accidents where significant enough trauma has happened to cause battery compromise and fire. Either way, a 2.5lb fire extinguisher wouldn't do much against possibly 1500 lbs of fuel.
BTW, I carry one of these in all my vehicles ever since I stopped at a rollover accident which just happened but I wasn't able to get anyone out until someone else stopped who had a hammer.
Not sure we will see all cars on the road have level 5 automatous cars with no driver interferences allowed by Law in our life time.
These kids were more than likely joy riding... and wouldn’t have been sitting lettting a car drive them the speed limit.
Elon is probably wishing he hadn't pissed off the NTSB and hung up on its chief now.
Tam
Well-Known Member
I should have thought about that. Now that you have mentioned it, it is not that strange after all. Thanks!
These cars are driven by so much software, it seems like it would be pretty easy to have parental controls/locks....no radio, limited acceleration, limited top speed, etc. Would probably take the Tesla intern half a day to do all this. You're welcome, Elon.
Graffi
Member
Indeed on the 1st point.
As for what chemistry the '19 Leaf will use, that's all speculation at this point. AFAIK, Nissan has made no announcements on that topic. They've only said a faster, longer range version for model year 2019.
2018 Nissan LEAF Press Kit says "For those who want more excitement and performance, Nissan will also offer a new higher power, longer range version at a higher price for the 2019 model year."
I was at an EVent at Nissan's Sunnyvale, CA research office in late 2017 (along w/MANY others) where they had a slide up saying 225+ miles of range. I asked the Nissan corporate marketing guy if he could be more specific than model year 2019. He was unwilling to answer that.
60 kWh has been thrown around, which is probably about right.
Years ago, someone did this, which is purportedly a Leaf cell:
Nissan LEAF Battery Cell Destruction Video - NO FIRE - Just A Little Smoke
A post by Charles Whalen at Volt thermal management system temperature band? [Archive] - GM-Volt: Chevy Volt Forum is often cited elsewhere about the safety of various chemistries. It's the one at 10-05-2010, 04:35 PM. Search for unsafe or safer chemistry.
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