Dual Fatality Model S Crash/Fire: Fort Lauderdale, FL May 8, 2018

[DanCar]

Just heart breaking how many young people lose their lives in MVAs. The only reason this tragedy will get a lot of press is because the vehicle was a Tesla.

The reasons are:
1. Tesla advertises safest cars ever. tesla.com homepage.
2. Tesla uses more dangerous NCA batteries where other manufacturers choose safer NMC.

 

[Ulmo]

Fire extinguisher isn't going to do much when you can't get to the source of the fire. By the time interior stuff is lit the fire is big.

Does that make a halon fire extinguisher always ineffective?

 

[xyeahtony]

why is this news? people get into car accidents everyday and die, but because its a Tesla it deserves our attention? I doubt every time a mustang crashes its brought up in the mustang enthusiasts forum.

 

[Ulmo]

After actual testing, the FAA changed their policy. You can see it in your second document (first doc is 2009):

FAA 2014

– Tests done at the FAA showed that water was effective at extinguishing burning electrolyte from lithium-ion cells as well as stopping the propagation of thermal runaway.

– Halon 1211 was effective in extinguishing burning electrolyte from lithium-ion cells, but was ineffective in stopping the propagation of thermal runaway.

– Halon 1301 was also effective in extinguishing burning electrolyte from lithium-ion cells, but was ineffective in stopping the propagation of thermal runaway.

– Ice was not effective at preventing thermal runaway when placed directly on a laptop keyboard.

The text you quoted indicates to me that halon could be used to save people but not stop the core fire problems. That's what Gator said, too, but I haven't tested either; I'm just reading what you posted.

 

[Ulmo]

why is this news? people get into car accidents everyday and die, but because its a Tesla it deserves our attention? I doubt every time a mustang crashes its brought up in the mustang enthusiasts forum.

1. To bash on Tesla.
2. So Tesla short sellers can make money.
3. So news companies can get clicks.
4. Because it's a battery fire, and car battery (used for motive power, not accessories) fires are new.
5. They were trapped in there and died by burning to death.
6. As a caution not to speed and get in a situation where you hit or might hit something. You will likely not survive.
   
7. As a caution that Teslas, being safer cars, do not make you invincible in them.
8. Because we can learn how to deal with these safety concerns.
   1. Methods to reduce fire enough to get people out and save them. We are reactively learning about ways to do that in this forum right now.
      
   2. Avoid putting oneself in situations where there's fires in these cars. This is obvious, and goes to my #6 above.
   3. Educate fire departments about what we learned about Tesla fires in general.
9. I am wondering why they accelerated into a concrete wall.
   1. There are too many hazardous murderous concrete walls and curbs by roads. They should go away in many instances. This is someting traffic planners and citizens should do, to remove them, where appropriate. Don't use legal title and blaming victims (those who get hurt by concrete curbs and walls) as a way to prevent fixing this problem.
   2. Did they not know there was a concrete wall hazard in that section of road, and then they put themselves in danger in such a way they ended up hitting it?
   3. Did a hacker take over the car and steer them into the concrete wall? I only suspect well-resourced hackers of doing such a thing, such as foreign enemy governments that want to off some of our best. This is opposite of my concern that the driver did something stupid. Obviously, I don't know what happened, which is why I consider both sides.

Like my previous post in another thread, this is not all one thing or another.

 

[TaoJones]

why is this news? people get into car accidents everyday and die, but because its a Tesla it deserves our attention? I doubt every time a mustang crashes its brought up in the mustang enthusiasts forum.

There’s a certain amount of inevitable schaedenfreude. It’s unhelpful but difficult to avoid, especially in an age of quasi-anonymous Interwebz snark.

People used to say that Apple was going out of business pretty much every day for decades. Ironically, they had the same market share as did BMW, yet the clamoring for BMW’s demise was considerably more muted if heard at all.

Meanwhile, you’re right - if the victims in this instance had been in an Escalade, it’s local and maybe regional news at best. But two Teslas full of friends and one crashes into a wall? Now it’s global.

At least, and while of little comfort to the families, the Tesla fatal accidents tend to get more thoroughly investigated, which presents the possibility of accelerated improvements although at a steep price.

For example, repairs to collapsible freeway barriers may happen in a less tardy manner for awhile as a result of the Bay Area tragedy.

Tangentially, I charged at Oxnard today and encountered an SC tech who pointed out the dent in the tall sign (see image below) that’s in the middle of the row of pedestals. That dent was from a palm tree that was knocked down when a vehicle crashed into the site this past week - the second time that’s happened. Perhaps the adjacent fence will be reinforced and the highway guardrails extended before there is a third episode. Both the tech and I were parked right about where both impacts occurred and we did not dawdle.

It’s awfully difficult to find any good in these events, but if there is any, maybe it’s that the disproportionate attention will help to spur positive changes. More attentive drivers, better infrastructure and safety features, that sort of thing.

 

[BioSehnsucht]

Very sad to hear this - heartbreaking.

This is a 30mph road - how fast can they be going? even if double - say 60mph, in one of the safest cars in the world - not able to get out of it alive - is really sad to hear, and scary to think of what-if-I-was-in-there scenarios. I would hope Tesla scientists work harder to innovate on fire-control mechanisms - some (bad) ideas:
* fire-resistant chemistry

Not sure there's anything "fire-resistant" that is useful. Some argue NMC (what most other brands use) is safer vs NCA (what Tesla uses), but that makes a lot of tradeoffs which is part of why most other brands' range and battery capacity, especially per battery pack dollar, can't compete

* tougher shell to prevent intrusions into battery compartment

It's already super strong - if you've got intrusion into the battery pack compartment, making it stronger likely wasn't going to save lives, you're screwed already due to all the trauma such an event would cause

* chemicals built into battery case (or situated closely) to spill onto cells in case of intrusion (to delay fire spreads) - e.g. if crash sensors detect severe accidents - and airbags deploy - the fire-retardant chemical container can be opened and spilled onto the battery

There's a Tesla patent for a fire-retarding goo, though AFAIK the S/X never used it. It was supposed to expand and absorb heat if cells started to thermally run away, helping to slow down / prevent runaway. 3 Has some kind of potting or something, not sure if it's this or something else. As for magic chemicals that are "spilled onto the battery" - no guarantee the battery is right side up and flat after such an accident, so you'd need something more complicated and space consuming than that

* mechanisms to auto-open operational doors/trunks and auto-cut belts (after vehicle comes to rest) to give able occupants higher chance to exit

Okay, sure, but then everyone else should have to implement these too. But then what if the door that opens is going to dump you into a river off the edge of a bridge? Unlock, sure, but don't open. Besides, if a regular human can't force the door open, no sane automatic mechanism can either.

* have a mechanism to eject the entire battery if car gets airborne (partially or fully) - of course - many corner cases need to be considered...

Too many things to go wrong here... the last thing you should be doing is creating more wreckage

* most accidents that start fire seem to be due to too-much forward intrusion (hitting tree, hitting wall etc.) - Tesla may want to consider re-positioning the battery cell to have slightly more pushed back (heading into trunk area, instead of front battery cells like in 100KWh packs, may be actually reduce the battery capacity so as not to have cells getting outside of the 4 wheels area

The battery pack is actually one of the things that often stops intrusion during extremely high speed impacts, as it is quite rigid, and conveniently is about the shape of the passenger area. The reason you correlate fires with forward intrusion is about the only way to do enough damage is to hit something at stupidly high speeds that would completely destroy any vehicle. Surprisingly often you get to walk away from a Tesla in these cases, versus what would happen in most ICE vehicles capable of such speed.

* AP to take action (even if AP is not ON) and force braking (or other maneuvers) to save lives - isn't that the main purpose - AP is designed to make driving safer - so take action - don't just watch the driver hit a wall when AP could have applied brakes?

Currently, safety systems that override human input would be frowned upon and not trusted by most, so this isn't an option. The existing systems stop doing anything once human input is detected (i.e. brake or accelerate when automatic braking has engaged will give up control to the human). It will be quite some time before the masses are ready to give up control is such a fashion

I don't know. I am just throwing out ideas after reading these really sad news. I am hoping Tesla is innovating here and will build the safest car in the world. May be German makers (MB/Porsche) actually innovate on battery safety and come up with something ahead of Tesla and catch them blindsided. It will be good for the entire industry and a little competition will be healthy for Tesla too.

The main problem that leads to battery fires is too much performance in the hands of too irresponsible people. The pack design is actually quite safe, the problem is people barreling into things so hard they manage to split it open and cause a thermal runaway due to shorted / exposed cells.

 

[whitex]

F1 cars run self sealing tanks and there has never been an explosive accident since they started using them.

They must have only recently added those. This is from 2014:

Daniil Kvyat, Scuderia Toro Rosso STR9 catches fire and retires from the race at German GP

Unless you mean explosive as in a big boom, fireball, the whole car in pieces kind of explosion, well, in that case EV's haven't had any of those either.

 

[jelloslug]

I think you’ll need a super oversized one, much larger than one you would carry in an everyday basis.

Well, since the batteries are not excessively combustible, stopping the fire quickly will keep it from getting it out of control.

 

[Snowstorm]

If those victims were alive after the crash (witness said they were moving) is there a reason why they can’t get out? Did the doors lose power and cannot be unlocked? Where they jammed due to deformation? How fast did the fire ignite and spread?

 

[Just a Reader]

why is this news? people get into car accidents everyday and die, but because its a Tesla it deserves our attention? I doubt every time a mustang crashes its brought up in the mustang enthusiasts forum.

The news of this accident even made it into the German mainstream media. It's no surprise, though. Elon Musk has managed to generate enormous publicity for Tesla with all sorts of bold claims about Autopilot etc., yet you have to take the bad publicity with the good one. You are not entitled to get positive media coverage only.

 

[McRat]

The text you quoted indicates to me that halon could be used to save people but not stop the core fire problems. That's what Gator said, too, but I haven't tested either; I'm just reading what you posted.

Unknown. Heat kills. The electrolyte isn't the problem anymore than the car interior or the victim's clothing burning. The thermal runaway is. If you could flood the floor of the car with water, it would delay the thermal runaway and keep temps low enough. Even if the gases were only 175°F it would be difficult to rescue someone without some protection.

Halon works by chemistry. It makes the flammable gases inert. It's very powerful, but does have not a lot of cooling ability for a big fire. FAA was testing on notebooks and smaller. 6 cells vs over 7,000.

The comedy act in lithium fires is Boeing vs Japan. When the Dreamliner experienced battery fires in the APU battery (battery made in Japan), the solution was to put it in a 200lb protective enclosure, defeating the benefit of the battery to begin with. They knew Halon was not a fix. Keep in mind this more like a pair of ICE car batteries, not an EV traction battery.

Also (gag), the 'good' Halon for fires is a banned CFC.

I had studied the issue a bit when I was racing Bonneville. I decided on Halon for the engine compartment, and aqueous foam for myself. One of my friends was badly burned and retired when the cockpit had fire intrusion. The rules do not allow an unvented cabin. I knew that water can absorb a lot of heat even after the extinguisher is exhausted. Halon? When it stops spraying, start praying. It's going to get warm in a hurry if the fire is going.

If I had to put a fire system in an EV for the driver, I'd go with aqueous foam with the nozzles aimed at me. If possible, a second bottle with Halon with nozzles into the battery enclosure. What about a portable? Uh... an escape tool and gloves would be a better choice.

The real risk is sooo small as to be silly in a stock street car.

Cliff Notes - use water if available.

 

[ccdisce]

Very sad. These cars are too fast to let an 18 year old with their friends drive. Kids will always want to show off but don't have the driving experience to handle the car. I believe the lithium fire helped contribute to the actual deaths because structurally these cars can take a lot as we all have seen. It wouldn't have mattered if it was a Tesla or a Chevy, lithium fires are dangerous. If you ever want to see how bad they are charge up an old laptop battery and give it one good smack with a hammer. It will start to swell, smoke and then instantly catch fire like a blow torch. Maybe it would be good for Tesla to add an option like Valet but for teen drivers. Limit speed, acceleration, add geofencing and app alerts when they are doing something they shouldn't.

Reminds me of a similar situation her in Atlanta a few years ago, which I remember because I rode my bike on the bike trail across form the ICE accident where I saw the burnt grass and burnt tree.
Graduation time is a dangerous time for the young as they explore their wings in fast cars.
A recent HS grad was presented with used Ferrari by his family, some time later took it for a spin with a friend and went air borne around a curve as the road dropped away, spun the back end into a tree, driver an passenger were able to extract themselves but driver died at the scene, passenger lived. car caught fire. Only reports in the local media.... accident did not make the national news.

 

[sillydriver]

Do we know whether the crash was of a P model or a regular MS?

 

[Az_Rael]

I charged at Oxnard today and encountered an SC tech who pointed out the dent in the tall sign

Accident at Oxnard Supercharger Site

 

[bro1999]

2. Tesla uses more dangerous NCA batteries where other manufacturers choose safer NMC.

The semi-regular news events of Teslas crashing and catching fire seem to support your statement. When's the last time you heard of a Bolt/Leaf/i3 exploding into flames after a high impact accident?

This Bolt was involved in a head-on collision on the highway, but it didn't catch fire. Not aware of any other serious Bolt crashes aside from this one.

Wrong-Way Driver Facing Charges After Fatal US-23 Crash

 

[IngTH]

Unless you mean explosive as in a big boom, fireball, the whole car in pieces kind of explosion, well, in that case EV's haven't had any of those either.

But you know that in F1 they use LiIon batteries as well?

How would you call this (sec 14/"madre")?

 

[jelloslug]

The semi-regular news events of Teslas crashing and catching fire seem to support your statement. When's the last time you heard of a Bolt/Leaf/i3 exploding into flames after a high impact accident?

This Bolt was involved in a head-on collision on the highway, but it didn't catch fire. Not aware of any other serious Bolt crashes aside from this one.

Wrong-Way Driver Facing Charges After Fatal US-23 Crash

I can find a hundred examples of wrecked Teslas that did not catch on fire.

 

[IngTH]

Well, since the batteries are not excessively combustible, stopping the fire quickly will keep it from getting it out of control.

Thats wrong! A 85KWh battery has a similar caloric value as 115l of gasoline! Max burning temperature is way higher too!

 

[bro1999]

I can find a hundred examples of wrecked Teslas that did not catch on fire.

You can do that with any car. My question is why don't we hear about other EV's like the Bolt/Leaf/i3 catching fire after crashes like we see with Teslas every other month or so? I'm pretty sure it's not because Bolt/Leaf/i3 drivers don't get into serious crashes. So is it true that Tesla's battery chemistry is more prone to catching fire than the other EV manufacturers?