Dual Fatality Model S Crash/Fire: Fort Lauderdale, FL May 8, 2018

[SomeJoe7777]

This video suggest that they were burned alive...survived the crash but unfortunately couldn't make it out of the fire

This is an unfortunate sequence of events that in my mind, increased the horror of this tragedy. In many (maybe most?) other cars, the occupants may have been killed on impact from blunt force trauma. In the Model S, due to it's very high safety in collisions, they survived the impact, only to be killed by the fire. Were it another car that crashed and caught fire, the fire would not have been the focus of their deaths.

You can do that with any car. My question is why don't we hear about other EV's like the Bolt/Leaf/i3 catching fire after crashes like we see with Teslas every other month or so? I'm pretty sure it's not because Bolt/Leaf/i3 drivers don't get into serious crashes. So is it true that Tesla's battery chemistry is more prone to catching fire than the other EV manufacturers?

Possibly. But to get a Li-Ion battery to burn, it has to be ruptured and then commence thermal runaway. If you compare a Leaf vs. a P100D, both with teenagers in it, which is more likely to reach a speed and an impact that would rupture the battery pack? I don't think you can only look at the frequency of battery fires and determine that the Tesla batteries are more likely to catch fire, as there are other factors that affect the Tesla battery fire risk other than its chemistry.

There is another Li-Ion battery technology that is being tested in lab conditions that completely avoids thermal runaway under all conditions. See the Nova episode called "Search for the Super Battery".

What Elon says and the reality are two different things! On real crash tests Model S has poor to middle performance.

You've been reading too many opinion pieces written by those automobile manufacturers that are seeing declining sales of their luxury models.

 

[CapnLoki]

The Mercedes E-class sedan has 9 deaths, hence should not be on the list. AWD is an option, not a new model. Or you must split Model S's by drive configuration.

You're misreading - you need to look at the original data for this -
Driver death rates
Click on the data for 2014/Large/Luxury for comparables such as Audi A6, BMW 5 series, MB E-class.
The death rate is PER ONE MILLION CARS. Since most of the these cars have a few hundred thousand or less, the data needs to be scaled to make sense. For instance, the Mecedes E-Class numbers of 4 and 5 actually are only 1 accident of each model. The Genesis probably and 3 deaths, and the BMW 528 was probably 6 or so.

Due to limited data, even though some of them have "0" driver deaths, the "confidence limits" are much higher, like 0-36 for the Audi. This would explain why some cars that are very similar, like the BMW 528 and 535 seem to have different rates - statistically they are the same.

Also, saying that some accidents don't count is cherry picking. It would be OK if you could analyze all the data and make some correlation, but just claiming some don't count is meaningless. Because of limited data its really hard to make any claims, since the statistical significance is low.

That said, some of the competition has had very low death rates (0 or 1 total per year) for a long time so its a bit disturbing that Tesla has had several single car fatalities in the last few months.

 

[bro1999]

I believe this is relevant to this thread.
GM offers a "Teen driving mode" in many of its cars. It allows the owner to set speed alerts (chime if a speed is exceeded), speed limiter (to 85 mph), max volume limiter (so your teen driver can't blow out the speakers), and an audio mute unless the driver and front passenger have their seatbelts buckled. Teen driver mode also logs a report card that lets the owner know if their teen has been driving like a grandma or Jimmie Johnson.
Teen Driver Technology: New Driver Safety | Chevrolet

I'm surprised Tesla doesn't offer a similar mode. Or does it?

 

[PhantomX]

With any High Speed crash the one thing all the safety equipment in the world will not save is the human body, internal organs and brain. Going from 60 mph to 0 mph withing the one or two feet of crumple zone will destroy these organs, even with air bags which will preserve the outer shell of our body.

I do not know the speed at impact, but since it was enough to start a battery fire it was very high. Even if these kids were able to be removed from the vehicle there is a high probability they would have died from "internal injuries".

Please do not get me wrong. I am very sad for the loss of any life, and I send my thoughts and prayers to the family.

I was under the impression that any Tesla battery fire takes some time to become a large fire. Does anyone know how long it will take, or did take, in these recent Tesla Crash fires?

I wouldn't make a general statement that an impact at 60mph means fatality. A head up collision at 60mph is definitely survivable as long as the system works properly (energy dissipation, body motion control, etc.). Take a look at some of the F1 and Indy Car crashes, where impacts are often at 100mph + and they walk away. Human body can withstand quite a bit, and properly designed structures add to the ability to withstand some very violent crashes.

Take a look at this crash in Melbourne where Fernando Alonso walked away from (initial impact was over 180mph). (peak force on Alonso was measured at 46G)

 

[K-MTG]

This is an unfortunate sequence of events that in my mind, increased the horror of this tragedy. In many (maybe most?) other cars, the occupants may have been killed on impact from blunt force trauma. In the Model S, due to it's very high safety in collisions, they survived the impact, only to be killed by the fire. Were it another car that crashed and caught fire, the fire would not have been the focus of their deaths.



Possibly. But to get a Li-Ion battery to burn, it has to be ruptured and then commence thermal runaway. If you compare a Leaf vs. a P100D, both with teenagers in it, which is more likely to reach a speed and an impact that would rupture the battery pack? I don't think you can only look at the frequency of battery fires and determine that the Tesla batteries are more likely to catch fire, as there are other factors that affect the Tesla battery fire risk other than its chemistry.

There is another Li-Ion battery technology that is being tested in lab conditions that completely avoids thermal runaway under all conditions. See the Nova episode called "Search for the Super Battery".



You've been reading too many opinion pieces written by those automobile manufacturers that are seeing declining sales of their luxury models.

Exactly, because the witness (in the video) stated that they saw people moving inside the vehicle but the flames prevented them from helping. And perhaps this is why media is talking about this...slowly burned to death is worse than death by impact.

When did the accident occur? In previous Tesla fires...the occupants were usually able to get out before the cabin caught on fire. But it seems that the fire was immediate or were people just late to help?

I am not bashing Tesla...but this is perhaps the most tragic incident in a Tesla.

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

Regarding the statistics stated above for death rates - death rate per 1M vehicles = wrong. this is an invalid statistic as it should be Death rate per 1M miles = correct - I believe Tesla S' have a bit higher miles driven than any other similar vehicle(not sure about actual statistics)

 

[PhantomX]

By the way, what is the outer casing material that protects the battery? Is it titanium? If so, what is the temperature range of a battery fire? Titanium can start to burn above 1200F, and it cannot be put out by water. As far as I know, pouring water on titanium will make things much worst, as I recall an incident 15 years ago in Huntington Beach when a titanium structure was accidentally ignited while being cut by a plasma cutter.

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

'Ballistic' Aluminum

 

[emorog]

NTSB, NHTSA To Investigate Fiery Crash Of Tesla In Ft. Lauderdale

*NTSB is Investigating
*the driver had been ticketed two months prior for going 112 in a 50
*because of that, the parents had Tesla alter the car so that it could not go faster than 85 miles per hour.

 

[PhantomX]

'Ballistic' Aluminum

Thanks!

 

[Valore]

By the way, what is the outer casing material that protects the battery? Is it titanium?

I don't know, but if I was to design a battery casing, I'd choose something like 5059 Aluminium.

Surface of the battery casing looks like Aluminium.

 

[emorog]

how come there are no pictures of where they hit the wall? it looks like it must have been ~300 feet from where the car burned

View attachment 300484
source: 1 min in NTSB, NHTSA To Investigate Fiery Crash Of Tesla In Ft. Lauderdale

 

[emorog]

how come there are no pictures of where they hit the wall? it looks like it must have been ~300 feet from where the car burned

source: 1 min in NTSB, NHTSA To Investigate Fiery Crash Of Tesla In Ft. Lauderdale

 

[jimmyjohn]

"The parents had Tesla alter the car"

This makes zero sense ---- I know you're probably repeating hearsay, but this sounds -- at best -- naive, and -- more likely -- a lie.

NTSB, NHTSA To Investigate Fiery Crash Of Tesla In Ft. Lauderdale

*NTSB is Investigating
*the driver had been ticketed two months prior for going 112 in a 50
*because of that, the parents had Tesla alter the car so that it could not go faster than 85 miles per hour.

 

[MP3Mike]

"The parents had Tesla alter the car"

This makes zero sense ---- I know you're probably repeating hearsay, but this sounds -- at best -- naive, and -- more likely -- a lie.

Why do you say that? Tesla limits loaner cars to 85 MPH, and apparently the family asked Tesla to apply that same limitation to this Tesla. (Yes, it is sort of a stretch to call changing a setting altering the car, but it really is.)

 

[emorog]

"The parents had Tesla alter the car"

This makes zero sense ---- I know you're probably repeating hearsay, but this sounds -- at best -- naive, and -- more likely -- a lie.

FWIW It makes perfect sense to me. I have the ability to limit top speed in my Ford CMax currently.

I am summarizing the video, so you can gather the main points without having to watch it. It is certainly possible that the aunt is lying, but that is what was reported.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

"The parents had Tesla alter the car"

This makes zero sense ---- I know you're probably repeating hearsay, but this sounds -- at best -- naive, and -- more likely -- a lie.

It's theoretically possible. Tesla's loaners are speed-limited to 85 MPH, and there have been a few cases where someone has purchased a Model S that was an inventory car, loaner, or CPO and has discovered that the 85 MPH limit was still in place, requiring a call to Tesla to remove the limit.

It's very conceivable that the family could have requested that Tesla place that limit in force on the car, just like they would do if it was a loaner. Granted, I have never heard of it being done before, but there is no technical reason why it couldn't be and it's standard practice that Tesla does all the time with regards to the loaner vehicles.

 

[Pinot.Noir]

The only alteration the parents should have made was to move this kid to a Ford Fusion.

 

[Pinot.Noir]

*NTSB is Investigating
*the driver had been ticketed two months prior for going 112 in a 50
*because of that, the parents had Tesla alter the car so that it could not go faster than 85 miles per hour.

I'm shocked that he didn't lose his license...for at least a year....from the 112 MPH infraction. Especially at 18 years old. If this had been my kid he would have received a nice shiny new bus pass.

 

[Pinot.Noir]

This story has some more details that I haven't seen elsewhere.

Tesla crash victim's aunt says car's maximum speed was 85 mph