WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
I think they've fixed that, haven't they? Fitted the smaller Frunk, as standard, in the RWD cars
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Dual motor vs. RWD in winter driving.
- Thread starter Raindog1
- Start date
I think they've fixed that, haven't they? Fitted the smaller Frunk, as standard, in the RWD cars
In principle, you have twice as many differentials/gears, motors, and inverters in the AWD to have issues and fail.
In practice, it hasn't worked out that way. The D uses the newer, smaller second generation motors at front and rear. I have yet to see a report of one of those being replaced, but many of the larger first generation motors/drive units in RWD cars (and the rear of PxxDs) have been replaced under warranty (though there are fewer reports this year - maybe Tesla finally sorted out whatever was causing the issues.)
All of these things should be extremely reliable - there aren't many parts to fail, there aren't larger thermal cycles, there isn't much vibration, and there aren't a lot of wear elements involved. Tesla probably isn't being unreasonable in reaching for a million mile drivetrain. It'll be interesting to see how the used markets swing as people come to realize that a high mileage EV is probably more reliable and has more life left in it than a low mileage ICE...
rhumbliner
Member
Haven't had any issues with the drive motors in my 90D but my 75 needed the drive motor replaced during the drive home. Granted the drive home was from Las Vegas to Jackson, but still.
Both are refreshed models.
Both are refreshed models.
My 60D is my first AWD car after several RWD BMWs. I preferred the classic RWD feel, and expected to go with RWD on the S, but a few semi-aggressive maneuvers on back-to-back test drives persuaded me that the Tesla's AWD was far superior to its RWD in terms of road feel and control in even normal conditions. I think the D is worth every penny, every day.
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
My MS was bought 12 months ago and the larger motor was replaced after about 3 months (dry bearings or something like that). I was surprised because I thought that was an "already solved" problem at the time I bought it.
I agree 99%. I have seen a couple of people here on the forum report problems with small motors, but it's literally only 1 or 2 people in an entire thread about motor problems that went on for many pages. The small motors overall have been far more reliable.
Haven't had any issues with the drive motors in my 90D but my 75 needed the drive motor replaced during the drive home. Granted the drive home was from Las Vegas to Jackson, but still.
Both are refreshed models.
Interesting to note your 90D has two small motors and the 75 one large motor.
I've never owned nor regularly driven a FWD car. All have been RWD (I have occasionally driven a FWD, but it's rare). My SO has had AWD Subarus the time we've been together, she had a 96 Outback when we met and has a 2013 Impreza now. My last car was a 1992 Buick Roadmaster I bought new. The AWD Model S is fantastic.
For the sake of discussion: dissenting opinion here:
My first Model S was RWD. Incomparably better on snow than any RWD car I owned before (e.g. BMW 5-series), and in fact really good at it (better than my previous AWD Lexus RX for example).
My current Model S is AWD. Is a bit more energy efficient, so I do have more range which I appreciate. I did lose half of my frunk (well, as @WannabeOwner mentioned, Tesla 'solved' that problem by giving RWD cars the same frunk as AWD cars), but more importantly the car is also less fun to drive (even if I have more horsepower), mainly because you somewhat 'feel' the front motor in your steering wheel, which was not the case with my previous Model S RWD.
See the video below in respect of the difference AWD makes (if you use winter tyres on snow).
My next Tesla will be RWD again (well, if they still make them).
My first Model S was RWD. Incomparably better on snow than any RWD car I owned before (e.g. BMW 5-series), and in fact really good at it (better than my previous AWD Lexus RX for example).
My current Model S is AWD. Is a bit more energy efficient, so I do have more range which I appreciate. I did lose half of my frunk (well, as @WannabeOwner mentioned, Tesla 'solved' that problem by giving RWD cars the same frunk as AWD cars), but more importantly the car is also less fun to drive (even if I have more horsepower), mainly because you somewhat 'feel' the front motor in your steering wheel, which was not the case with my previous Model S RWD.
See the video below in respect of the difference AWD makes (if you use winter tyres on snow).
My next Tesla will be RWD again (well, if they still make them
).
jschwefel
Tesla fan/TSLA, Model Y and Cybertruck owner.
FWIW, I'm in the same camp on this one. I originally convinced myself that my first Tesla was going to be AWD, but ended up getting a used P85 instead. After driving it for just over a year and through a moderate Indiana winter, I don't feel the need to go AWD on my next one. Even with A/S tires, I found the RWD to be amazing, much better than most of my other cars (Accords and Camrys), and snow tires would make it better still. True, AWD would be even better, and it has other advantages as well, but I can find better ways to spend $5k.For the sake of discussion: dissenting opinion here:
My first Model S was RWD. Incomparably better on snow than any RWD car I owned before (e.g. BMW 5-series), and in fact really good at it (better than my previous AWD Lexus RX for example).
My current Model S is AWD. Is a bit more energy efficient, so I do have more range which I appreciate. I did lose half of my frunk (well, as @WannabeOwner mentioned, Tesla 'solved' that problem by giving RWD cars the same frunk as AWD cars), but more importantly the car is also less fun to drive (even if I have more horsepower), mainly because you somewhat 'feel' the front motor in your steering wheel, which was not the case with my previous Model S RWD.
See the video below in respect of the difference AWD makes (if you use winter tyres on snow).
My next Tesla will be RWD again (well, if they still make them
Hello, live in Québec (Canada) where there is real harsh winters - cold, snowy and icy roads up to 6 months / years.
Never had RWD, but yes for having previous FWD (Altima, Prius) and now we have all AWD Subaru's. FWD are ok, but AWD awesome!
The main thing for us up north is to be able to go to deep snow (roads being plowed, so many snowfalls that plowing can last several days...)
AWD is the best choice with good winter tires (Michelin X-ice, Nokia Hakkapileta,..) to handle winter conditions.
No matter what our M3 selection is AWD, never thinked of having RWD and being stuck at a stop sign on a hil not able to go foward, wheels spinning... happened BTW with a FWD.
Rural part of Norway here with a lot of snow, and have driven both RWD and 4WD Model S in winter and can say they both handle well in winter times. Both with studless tires, proper studless tires and not those all weather ones that central Europe and North America uses. First of the RWD is a lot better than other comparable cares with RWD, I guess that is a result of the weight and the width of the car. Traction both on ice and snow is good and even hill start on snow and ice works if you turn of traction control. I was worried at first going from a 4Motion Passat to a RWD model S, but have never looked back or been worried about traction or handling in winters time.
For the 4WD it works just as good and gains some extra traction when accelerating in a straight line. If the added price of the 4WD is what worries you, I can't say the 4WD is worth getting over the RWD just for traction and handling. RWD works just fine, given that you run proper studless or stud tires.
PS: Have the same impression as others here about the enjoyment of driving a RWD vs a 4WD. You loose a lot in the handling department with the 4WD and the car pulls a lot from the front wheels.
For the 4WD it works just as good and gains some extra traction when accelerating in a straight line. If the added price of the 4WD is what worries you, I can't say the 4WD is worth getting over the RWD just for traction and handling. RWD works just fine, given that you run proper studless or stud tires.
PS: Have the same impression as others here about the enjoyment of driving a RWD vs a 4WD. You loose a lot in the handling department with the 4WD and the car pulls a lot from the front wheels.
Here near the Pacific coast of North America, we only get low altitude snow that sticks more than a day a couple of times a decade. Skiing is a big thing around here because of the nearby mountains and a lot of people ski in the winter (I never have because I was born with bad knees). Because it doesn't snow very often, we don't have many snow plows and the roads are not very well plowed when it does. That means a lot of compact snow and ice everywhere.
We had one of our rare heavy snows the first winter with my Model S (90D) and it handled the snow better than any car I've ever driven on just the all season tires that came with the car (Goodyear, which weren't that great).
I've never owned a sports car, but have always had rear wheel drive cars before this. I think the 90D handles much better in curves than anything else I've ever owned. Probably due to the low center of gravity and traction control system. I'll take your word for it that the RWD S is better, but the AWD is pretty good.
We had one of our rare heavy snows the first winter with my Model S (90D) and it handled the snow better than any car I've ever driven on just the all season tires that came with the car (Goodyear, which weren't that great).
I've never owned a sports car, but have always had rear wheel drive cars before this. I think the 90D handles much better in curves than anything else I've ever owned. Probably due to the low center of gravity and traction control system. I'll take your word for it that the RWD S is better, but the AWD is pretty good.
dgpcolorado
high altitude member
^ AWD is better than RWD on snow and ice, given the same tires. However Tesla RWD with snow tires is better than AWD with all season or summer tires. It isn't just about getting going or traction up hills -- it is the tires that help with stopping in slick conditions. If you have ever slid through an icy intersection or down an icy hill, this becomes clear.
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The trick with front wheel drive car is to go uphill in reverse in a gas car. Anyway, it is hard if not impossible to compare RWD gas car to RWD Tesla.
Teslas have better ‘throttle’ control, precise traction
control, close to 50/50 weight distribution and are heavier. All of that makes RWD Tesla drive much better than any RWD and some AWD ICE cars.
I had a few minor mishaps in the snow with previous cars. Trying to drive after freezing rain is the worst. I grew up in California and never drove in snow and ice until I moved to Seattle.
I think it was my second winter we had some freezing rain overnight and I was the first to leave home in the morning. I got to the first intersection and went to make a right and did a slow 360 in the middle of the intersection. Fortunately I didn't hit anything, but that was dicey getting to work. That same winter it snowed 6 inches during the day and I ended up stuck by the side of the road about a mile from home. My car was stranded there for about 6 hours before AAA showed up and someone had hit my car and broken the grill while it was stranded there.
I found my Model S better at everything in the snow even with the standard tires, including stopping. Though I was very careful to give plenty of stopping distance. I know I'm not very good at driving in snow. I only have to do it about once a decade.
My SO reluctantly agreed that my Model S was better than her Subaru in the snow when she drove it. Though both were AWD.
dgpcolorado
high altitude member
My suggestion for your infrequent snow/ice situation is to carry cable chains during winter. Yes, they are a nuisance to use (easier than conventional chains however) but if you get hit by unexpected slick weather you can put them on and get where you are going. I used cable chains for a while to get up my long steep curved driveway in winter, but it got to be too much trouble so I went to snow tires. However I live in the mountains in the snowbelt. Modern snow tires are wonderful for those of us in places with real winter.
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WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
Have you considered Winter Tyres? I clicked on your location and checked the weather and that brought up Vancouver; I don't know the geography well enough to know if that is representative for your location? but it showed temperatures below 10C / 50F for 4 months in the winter.and that sounds not unlike the UK. We get some snow a few days of the year, and a proper "roads-blocked" snowfall once a decade, so our snow sweeping equipment is purchased on the basis that "it never happens"
Similarly Winter tyres are not common because people also assume it will never happen ...
... but I fit them to all our cars and for our kids. Stopping distance in the cold-wet is far superior to all-seasons, not to mention when there is some ice about, and of course snow-driving is like night-and-day.
My first experience was driving to skiing (in the Alps) and being able to drive up the packed-snow mountain road from valley floor to the restore overtaking everyone using "occasional chains", and that was a front-wheel-drive car (with winter tyres). On AWD they are event better still.
My view is the inconvenience of having to get a minor bump repaired; or a worse accident; of the very occasional serious struggle to complete a journey in the snow; and for the "kids" to be safer, means that I now just fit the Winter Rubber as the Autumn starts heading below 10C.
We've had chains for both cars in the past, but I work from home and my SO can work from home most days, so we usually just stay in for the couple of days the roads are bad. Most winters when it does snow, it's only on the ground less than 24 hours so it's not big deal.
My SO has snow chain for her Subaru now, but I haven't gotten around to getting them for the Model S. The time I did go out in the snow I had to venture out for some reason I can't remember now. I was amazed how well it handled in the snow though. I found it interesting the only cars I saw on the road that day were 4X4 trucks and a couple other Model Ss. They weren't very common around here in early 2017, but all of them were out and about that day.
Vancouver is the largest city in the county. It's a 20 minute drive and our weather is very similar. We get a bit more rain because we're closer to the mountains (though only about 60m) so the rain clouds slow down as they pass over us. But otherwise the temps and general weather is identical.
Our low altitude winters are a lot like the UK for similar reason, the Pacific's equivalent of the Atlantic Conveyor current runs off the coast and keeps the west coast of North America milder than the east coast. Seattle and Montreal are on the same latitude, but Seattle has much milder winters. Though our summers are dry. The Pacific Northwest/SW Canada have what's called a mild Mediterranean climate. I know people who grew up in places like the former Yugoslavia or Northern Italy and they all say the coastal NW is a lot like their home countries.
The city has a fleet of service trucks, mostly pickups, and they have a few snowplow blades they can mount on these trucks when needed, but there are only a few blades. Back in 2008 the Portland area (we're a suburb of Portland, OR) broke the record for the longest period with snow on the ground (over 2 weeks) and the city had to call in everything they could to move snow. They cleared our street with a backhoe. We're at the end of the street at the bottom of a slope. We have a big storm drain in front of the house and even big rainstorms are no problem, but in their rush to clear the snow, they made a giant pile of it right over the storm drain. When the snow did melt we had a flood start to creep up our driveway. I called the city and the city engineer came out and agreed we had a problem, but he said all their equipment was broken from overuse. I did manage to dig a tunnel under the pile of snow and the water got down the drain, but we were getting nervous there.
Some people get winter tires around here, but wet roads are the biggest concern in the winter. When I got new tires I got the Michelin Primacy MXM4, they are supposed to be pretty good in the wet winter weather we have here. People who live a bit higher altitude do have to think about their tires in the winter. Once or twice a winter the snow line gets down to 100-200m and we see cars in town running around with snow on the roof of their car, but we don't get any.
The entire western US is much more mountainous than the UK. Within the Seattle city limits are several hills above 100m. Portland has an extinct volcano inside the city limits. When I lived in the Seattle area I was in a relatively close in suburb in a subdivision and my house was around 130m altitude. We got more snow there than we've had since moving to the Portland area. I was more diligent about having chains then.
When I was driving my Leaf and researching the Model S, the pros/cons, range variations between battery sizes,
interior/exterior options and lastly, affordability and while I had budgeted for a P85D, I ultimately went with
a 15 85D. My must have options were the dual motor with Tech pkg. Pano roof, AP, lifetime S/C and
4yr/100K warr. I was even able to get an S in a color of my preference. I will admit, the 85D is totally brilliant
performance wise, but the P85D, that does it all. Just to be clear, I love my 85D
interior/exterior options and lastly, affordability and while I had budgeted for a P85D, I ultimately went with
a 15 85D. My must have options were the dual motor with Tech pkg. Pano roof, AP, lifetime S/C and
4yr/100K warr. I was even able to get an S in a color of my preference. I will admit, the 85D is totally brilliant
performance wise, but the P85D, that does it all. Just to be clear, I love my 85D
