Dumb Winter Range Question

[justinlindh]

I just recently received my LR AWD last week and am trying to plan a trip tomorrow. I've been reading a lot of things online about degraded winter range, so other owner's opinions about whether I'd be safe to make this trip would be massively helpful in alleviating my range anxiety.

Details:
- Michelin X-ICE3 tires
- Billings, MT -> Sheridan, WY (~150 miles, mostly interstate @75MPH)
- Between 0 and 30 degrees F for most of the trip
- Family and luggage in car (~500lbs weight)
- Cabin heat would be left at 69F (seat warmers are great, but one of the seats is a kid's car seat so I need to keep cabin temps reasonable)
- Would supercharge to 100% at the start

Normally I wouldn't be concerned about a 150 miles trip, but there's no charging options in between and it's dangerous to stop in most of the areas along this route. I'm concerned that the winter tires and cold temperatures could make this trip a close call. Are those concerns unfounded? I've been reading some things about how cold temps + winter tires can cut distance by up to 50%, which freaks me out a little.

Thanks a ton for any advice, even if that advice is just telling me that I'm being dumb to worry.

 

[duanra]

Just a simple answer, play with abetterouteplanner and add a buffer. You can't go wrong.

 

[jjrandorin]

Slow that speed from 75MPH to 65MPH and you would likely have zero issues (the range hit is not linear as speed increases). Even planning on going 70 would be better than planning on going 75.

The website mentioned should help you (abetterrouteplanner).

Does the tesla route planner show Zero charging anywhere on your route, just in case?

 

[justinlindh]

Does the tesla route planner show Zero charging anywhere on your route, just in case?

The official Tesla route planner doesn't show any charging options in between. I've been able to find 1 report of a NEMA 14-50 along the route on plugshare, but it's a dated report and I really don't want to rely on it.

I've toyed with ABRP but it doesn't seem to account for winter tires, so I figured I'd ask here for extra assurance.

65MPH is doable, if that would help.

Thanks again for everybody's insight!

 

[AKinDC]

Are you plugged in at home? If so, preheat the car for at least 30 minutes, preferably longer, so the battery is warmer when you start.
Keep in mind that using a Supercharger to go to 100% will be a slow process.
All in all, if you stick to around 60mph, you should be OK, but I wouldn't push harder than that.
I just used about 220 miles of range on a 160 mile trip in 30 degree weather, with the stock aero tires, but I probably averaged about 70mph. Makes a big difference.

 

[justinlindh]

Are you plugged in at home? If so, preheat the car for at least 30 minutes, preferably longer, so the battery is warmer when you start.

I am, but still awaiting an electrician for my home wall charger, so I'm only on a 120V outlet. There's a supercharger on the way out of town, so I figured a 15 minute stop there to warm up/top off wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

[RFernatt]

Yeah, I'd drop the speed. Elevation change and wind can eat into the range significantly as well.

Here's my recent experience crossing the Appalachians in admittedly better conditions than you're talking about:

MASTER THREAD: Winter charging issues, frozen charge ports, road trips

 

[justinlindh]

Thanks, all.

It sounds to me like this would be a no brainer in Spring/Summer/Fall conditions with stock tires, but there's possibly a slight risk of range with this weather/config at the moment. I think I'll rely on my ICE car for this one, just to not have to worry about it, even though the worry may be mostly unfounded.

I think I'd feel more comfortable with the trip if I'd had my car for a bit longer and gotten a better feel for how it fares in this weather, but yeah, only had the car for about a week now, and only 2 days with the winter tires. Any risk of falling short of range on this trip just makes me more nervous than it's worth. That, and there was literally a recent story in the news about a family stopping along this road for help and being murdered so...

 

[IdaX]

My typical winter range in Idaho is worst-case 2/3 of rated. You’re going half your range, so you won’t have any trouble. Be sure to supercharge when you arrive, and not before you leave, as that way the battery will be warm and you’ll charge faster.

Report back, and good luck!

 

[RFernatt]

Thanks, all.
It sounds to me like this would be a no brainer in Spring/Summer/Fall conditions with stock tires, but there's possibly a slight risk of range with this weather/config at the moment. I think I'll rely on my ICE car for this one, just to not have to worry about it, even though the worry may be mostly unfounded.
I think I'd feel more comfortable with the trip if I'd had my car for a bit longer and gotten a better feel for how it fares in this weather, but yeah, only had the car for about a week now, and only 2 days with the winter tires. Any risk of falling short of range on this trip just makes me more nervous than it's worth. That, and there was literally a recent story in the news about a family stopping along this road for help and being murdered so...

Sounds prudent until you're more comfortable with how it performs in those conditions. Don't want to push your luck and have a bad experience right out of the gate especially with family on board. Even if you were confident you could make it, there is not a lot of wiggle room in case of road closures, detours, accidents on the route causing lengthy delays, unexpected weather, etc. and with no real charging options, it could become an issue.

As pilots say: "I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground." At least until you have a greater comfort level.

 

[justinlindh]

My typical winter range in Idaho is worst-case 2/3 of rated. You’re going half your range, so you won’t have any trouble. Be sure to supercharge when you arrive, and not before you leave, as that way the battery will be warm and you’ll charge faster.

Report back, and good luck!

I think I've already talked myself out of the trip, but if I do decide to do it, I'll absolutely report back. A few follow-up questions just because I'm curious, though.

Why supercharge only on arrival? Isn't it better to have a warm battery from the start? Also, ID weather around Moscow is pretty much identical to MT so that's neat... do you have winter tires on with the 2/3rd range you're seeing?

 

[Wooloomooloo]

OP - before you make that decision.

I assume you can charge at the destination? In which case, you’ll easily make it. It looks like a 130 mile trip, but you mentioned 150 miles, but even so that’s well within tolerance. The trip computer will estimate arrival charge and is usually pretty accurate at taking intro account elevation and even temperature, so check that but even with 95% charge, I bet it’ll estimate more than 10% to spare.

I did a very long winter road trip in a P3D+ in Dec 2018 and did many legs of more than 150 miles and never had an issue,

Even at 450 wh/mi and starting at 95% charge, you should arrive with 3-4kwh to spare, if you keep the consumption to <375 wh/mi you’ll be pretty comfortable.

 

[Manitoba Keith]

Look at the ^ [Energy] graph with it set at 30 miles [average]. Initially it will say less miles than you will get, but after about 20-30 miles (or less) it will get it sorted out. See how much it says you will arrive with. I like to keep a 20% or greater arrival margin in cold weather. I suspect that you will arrive with plenty but if you are new to this, keep it at 60 or 65 to see how it works. On the Tesla destination (NAV) screen, it may say, keep below XX to arrive. I don't believe it in cold weather. At -20 f, plan on 50-60% range (150-180 miles). At your temperatures you should be OK, but keep it slower until you see what happens and you learn your car. If the predicted arrival margin gets below 10%, I drive really slow (45 or so). Take a look at this site to see expected range vs speed at summer temperatures.

The reason you charge when you arrive is so it will charge faster due to a warm battery. Much - MUCH slower when cold.

 

[M_D129]

I just did a one day drive on Monday, to and from Duluth MN. 27f degrees ambient for most of the drive. 157 miles one way. I needed to supercharge, at destination, I only charged to 95% before leaving, however, was driving 75MPH. Range on arrival was 24%.

I should note I’m also running LR AWD, on Michelin X-Ice.

If you can charge at destination, you’ll have no problem. If you’re hoping to make it there and back, with no charging, between the drive and vampire drain, you won’t be able to do it without charging before driving home!

Hope this helps!

 

[justinlindh]

OP - before you make that decision.

I assume you can charge at the destination? In which case, you’ll easily make it. It looks like a 130 mile trip, but you mentioned 150 miles, but even so that’s well within tolerance. The trip computer will estimate arrival charge and is usually pretty accurate at taking intro account elevation and even temperature, so check that but even with 95% charge, I bet it’ll estimate more than 10% to spare.

I did a very long winter road trip in a P3D+ in Dec 2018 and did many legs of more than 150 miles and never had an issue,

Even at 450 wh/mi and starting at 95% charge, you should arrive with 3-4kwh to spare.

Yes, we're staying at the hotel in Sheridan with the super charger, so charging on arrival is a given. The trip planner is showing 141 miles distance between cities, so I was going off of that and just rounding up 9 miles.

So yeah, there's no charging stops along the ~140 mile route, but there's a supercharger on arrival. The car is rated at 320 miles range, so I *should* be safe even if it's as bad as 50% range loss with these tires/weather/climate control, but it felt close enough to make me a smidge nervous. I'm betting there's like a 95% chance that I'd make it just fine with ~15% charge left, but yeah... without having a great feel for the car's range at the moment, the range anxiety thing feels a little real.

 

[justinlindh]

Look at the ^ [Energy] graph with it set at 30 miles [average]. Initially it will say less miles than you will get, but after about 20-30 miles (or less) it will get it sorted out. See how much it says you will arrive with. I like to keep a 20% or greater arrival margin in cold weather. I suspect that you will arrive with plenty but if you are new to this, keep it at 60 or 65 to see how it works. On the Tesla destination (NAV) screen, it may say, keep below XX to arrive. I don't believe it in cold weather. At -20 f, plan on 50-60% range (150-180 miles). At your temperatures you should be OK, but keep it slower until you see what happens and you learn your car. If the predicted arrival margin gets below 10%, I drive really slow (45 or so). Take a look at this site to see expected range vs speed at summer temperatures.

The reason you charge when you arrive is so it will charge faster due to a warm battery. Much - MUCH slower when cold.

This all helps me understand things a lot. Thank you!

 

[Logger]

I am, but still awaiting an electrician for my home wall charger, so I'm only on a 120V outlet. There's a supercharger on the way out of town, so I figured a 15 minute stop there to warm up/top off wouldn't be a bad idea.

Just a heads up 'topping off' a Model 3 is going to take much longer than 15 minutes. Our Model X can take almost 50 minutes to go from 80% to 100%. As it gets closer to the 100% mark you're basically going to get a similar charge rate as you would in your house on the 120V plug. My advice would be to charge as much as possible before you leave. Preheat the vehicle as others have said and then drive 65 for the first 40 minutes. As you get closer to your destination you can speed up a little bit and see how that changes your estimated arrival percentage. Speed, in my experience, has been the biggest component when it comes to getting the best range. The cold will take it's toll, but you can't do much about the exterior temp.

 

[eprosenx]

I am, but still awaiting an electrician for my home wall charger, so I'm only on a 120V outlet. There's a supercharger on the way out of town, so I figured a 15 minute stop there to warm up/top off wouldn't be a bad idea.

So it would be pretty darned hard to exhaust a LR AWD that was charged to 100% on a 150 mile trip. You do have a lot of factors working against you, but a greater than 50% loss of rated range would be hard.

Pre heating the car off shore power is a great idea, but 120v is hard. I wonder if turning on pre-heat would actually be a net negative to overall range since it may take battery power to do it when only on 120v.

The supercharger is of limited value since it is at the beginning of your trip. As others pointed out, superchargers are really slow for taking your battery above 80% charge and also your car would start out with a cold battery and so that would further make the supercharger extremely slow.

Optimally you would just charge to 100% at home, not stop at the supercharger, and just enjoy the trip!

Also, getting 240v charging at home is key (for a lot of reasons). Being able to pre warm the battery and the car is nice (but I am not sure how much actual range that will buy you). Do you have a dryer plug or something you could connect to temporarily at home?

 

[justinlindh]

So it would be pretty darned hard to exhaust a LR AWD that was charged to 100% on a 150 mile trip. You do have a lot of factors working against you, but a greater than 50% loss of rated range would be hard.

Pre heating the car off shore power is a great idea, but 120v is hard. I wonder if turning on pre-heat would actually be a net negative to overall range since it may take battery power to do it when only on 120v.

Yeah, this was my thinking. I pre-heat in the mornings (via turning climate control on through the app) and it drops charge a few percentage to do it, so I think that pulls more than the 120V is able to provide. I'd planned on charging to 100% at home but stopping at the super charger mostly just to warm everything up without draining too much battery. It *seemed* like a decent idea, but might not work like I'd originally thought after reading some of these replies.

The dryer plug is, unfortunately, just a little bit out of reach of the car's mobile connector. The wall charger will help all of this a ton and it's just sitting here, staring at me, until the electrician can make it out. Hopefully soon!

 

[Manitoba Keith]

OH, you are welcome. We all have to learn for our area. I forgot to mention that a few weeks ago, I charged to 70% in -20 C ( -4 f) weather and headed out on a 120 mile trip. I had no fear of making it but there were other SuC and charging options on the way.