e-Bike Hate Picking Up, You Can Help

[Mtnrunner]

I'm a little confused about how the BLM regulations relate to the National park one.

As I understand it e-bikes are currently allowed in National Parks, and possibly other federal land. Is this allowance temporary until they review comments? They both seem to have the same June 8th 2020 due date.
https://www.nps.gov/subjects/biking/e-bikes.htm

It seems like this is applicable to ALL federal lands, and so its something every E-Bike enthusiast should get behind. And, obviously something an E-Bike hater needs to try to defeat.

Absolutely the only logical reasons I can see for trying to ban e-bikes on Federal land is to minimize participation.

It's understandable given how crowded hiking trails would be if low cost powered exo-skeletons were a thing. So instead of being clear of people 2 miles into a hike you were suddenly surrounded by all these "powered individuals" that would either be with you till the end or would pass you.

One of the great things about being in nature is it's your body against nature. All the people who can't handle it are gone. This means all the parents, and their pesky kids (these are the majority). It also excludes all the out of shape people, and the people with physically limiting conditions.

I don't know if anyone has been paying attention, but it seems like everyone has an E-bike these days. So we're not talking about a small amount of folks with physical handicaps. We're talking all kinds of people.

Even kids around my neighborhood have E-Bikes.

The lock down has exploded E-Bike sales so there is even more of them on the roads/trails/etc today.

One of the reasons I absolutely love my E-Bike is I can do crazy things with it. I can put it into full regen mode going down a hill where I have to pedal hard just to get down the hill or it won't move at all. Or I can put it into full assist, and blast up the hill going 28mph which is totally bizarre to people watching. Not even my Tesla is as cool as my E-Bike. By far its best thing I own.

The bike gives me the freedom to use it how I wish. But, the thing is it gives everyone else that power too.

If I want to go fast, and I'm where I can go fast then I go fast.
If I want to get a good workout then I use it to do that.
If my knee suddenly gives way (which sometimes it does without much warning) then I can easily manage to get back to where I started.

E-Bikes are the great equalizer.

They open up biking to the masses.

Great points and thank you for this contribution. Sounds like you’re riding a class 3 if it does 28mph. We’re trying to allow class 1 pedal assist with a 20mph governor. Class 2 and 3 allow for no pedaling with class 3 exceeding the 20mph going to 28mph. Colorado state parks allow class 1 and 2 after a year long study. BLM and US forest service want to allow, at least, class 1.

I’m in favor of class 1 and 2 as a no brainer. Class 3 sounds like fun but could be abused by riders not observing trail etiquette IMO.

The horseless carriage was heavily opposed but not because is was seen as ruining our environment but because it was a technology change that upset the status quo. Elon’s version woulda probably not used pollutants but the automobile did make shared road usage complicated and difficult for both horsies and roadsters.

Class 1 pedal assist ebikes sharing trails with mBikes do not. It’s harmonious and indistinguishable as observed in multiple studies. Hence the intention for BLM to, finally, allow them but not without opposition as seen here.

If we reserve the trails only for the physically capable and ignore and ban the technology that will allow others to enjoy the same we may as well eliminate wheel chair ramps.

 

[Mtnrunner]

How would this really work though?

With cars you have to have a disabled sticker for parking in a handicap spot, but this would be a bit insulting to an E-Bike owner. it would definitely dissuade me from bothering with it.

But, if I all I needed to do was to show some medical card if stopped I'd probably go through the hassle of acquiring it. Sometimes one of my knees will suddenly give, and the E-Bike makes it a LOT easier to go on long 60+ mile rides that I like doing.

With class 1 you show nothing but the sticker on your bike. Even young physically fit riders ride class 1 allowing for longer, less torturous and healthier exercise than unassisted non electronic bikes. It’s only for the uphill.

I’ve clocked 47mph on my acoustic bike on the downhill, with no one around of course, before my injury. With an ebike I can make it uphill again to enjoy the downhill and still get plenty of exercise hurting no one

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

With class 1 you show nothing but the sticker on your bike. Even young physically fit riders ride class 1 allowing for longer, less torturous and healthier exercise than unassisted non electronic bikes. It’s only for the uphill.

I’ve clocked 47mph on my acoustic bike on the downhill, with no one around of course, before my injury. With an ebike I can make it uphill again to enjoy the downhill and still get plenty of exercise hurting no one

This was a question for Puddles as the proposed solution doesn't fit the desire to keep the masses off the bike trails.

For hardcore cyclist the pain is part of the exhilaration of biking, and without this it's just not the same thing.

 

[Cheburashka]

e-bikes don't bother me at all.

From what I've seen, there is no difference between a regular mortal on an e-bike and a fit person on a pedal bike.

If more people are able to get fit and enjoy the trails, then I'm all for it.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Great points and thank you for this contribution. Sounds like you’re riding a class 3 if it does 28mph. We’re trying to allow class 1 pedal assist with a 20mph governor. Class 2 and 3 allow for no pedaling with class 3 exceeding the 20mph going to 28mph. Colorado state parks allow class 1 and 2 after a year long study. BLM and US forest service want to allow, at least, class 1.

The whole class separation won't work because why would anyone limit what they buy to some arbitrary rule on a trail they'd likely hardly ride on?

Take me for example.

I have two pedal assist bikes.

One of them is the E-Bike Mountain Bike that is class1, and it's limited to 20mph. This was the first E-Bike I got, and I got it after experiencing the joys of an E-Bike when I rented one on vacation.

The other one is a road bike that can give assist up to 28mph. This one is a lot more interesting to talk about as it has more flexibility in how the power electronics work. In that it has negative assist which is kinda funny, but makes sense.

The plan for my next E-Bike is to sell my single suspension eMtb, and to get a dual-suspension eMtb that's capable of 28mph. The only other requirement I have is an in-frame battery as I like the look better.

I'm not going to base the decision on what class levels Federal lands allow because I'm never on them. 90% of where I ride is around the general vicinity of my house.

On the occasional that I'm on federal land I'll do the same thing I do with my road bike on bike paths. Where I simply limit the speed myself so I'm not "that guy".

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

The whole class separation won't work because why would anyone limit what they buy to some arbitrary rule on a trail they'd likely hardly ride on?

Actually what might end up happening is the class requirements will push nearby E-Bike rental companies to only rent Class 1 bikes. So the majority of the E-Bikes on the trail would be class 1 even without strong enforcement on the trails itself.

I think most of us who bring our own bike will just chance it without paying much attention to what class our E-Bike is.

 

[MXLRplus]

Yes, often. I’ve found that off roaders are amused to see us so far into the wilderness.

I offer my deepest condolences for your injury. For the purposes of our discussion about public policy, I will continue to support the existing divisions of foot, pedal, and motor power. They are not perfect, but probably serve the most people the best. I also support accommodation for those differently abled.

This is how we ride our dirt bikes: We go fast up a lot hills and don't want to lose our momentum. Ditto for sand washes. We will use anything for traction to keep up our speed. Fortunately many of these hills and washes are impassable by bicycle, assisted or not. But you really don't want to be traction for a KTM 500. Just because you need to rest 1/2 way up, doesn't mean we can avoid you. Minimum we are going to spray you with rocks and pebbles so hard they draw blood and sometimes tweezers are required. Armor for M/Cs is 1000% different than MTBs.

You sound like you believe eBikes should be on the freeway. Or you really believe their punishment for riding an assisted bicycle on public lands should be serious injuries from dirt weapons.

 

[cucubits]

Wow, the ignorance of some of the members posting here is mind blowing. Their only salvation would be knowing nothing about bikes and just wanting to pass time by writing random things but some of them actually claiming to be mountain-bikers and still support this banning of ebikes, is just laughable. I'll go ahead and assume they're just jealous they don't have one.

On a serious note... what on earth could possibly make some people push for this ban? These pedal assisted mtbs cannot be called motor vehicles, they do not zoom around "regular" riders with great speeds, they do not ruin any trails. Heck some older regular bikes are heavier than some new e-bikes (some of the better ebikes currently are around 20kg). For most americans, this weight difference is negligible ...sorry, out of line here.

Yes, I have been mountainbiking all my life, no I don't have an e-bike, yes, I do absolutely see the benefit in having one.

It's not all that bad, the way the design of these e-bikes is progressing, I'm sure pretty soon it'll be hard to tell the difference from an un-assisted bike. Some of them are close already.

 

[lotusland]

I think most of us who bring our own bike will just chance it without paying much attention to what class our E-Bike is.

OK, for those of you asking "why would anyone be against having ebikes on public trails"? -- above is one of the main reasons. Once -any- motorized bike is allowed on a given trail, people like S4W will take whatever motorized bike they feel like on the trail. That's not my only reason for being strongly against ebikes on trails, but that is a big one. BTW 20mph or 28mph are both much faster than the average mountain biker travels, uphill or downhill.

For the record, I own a mt bike and have owned a moped (Puch!) and a motorcycle(CB-750). I hike and ride(pedal) frequently on all kinds of trails. I totally understand the arguments on both sides, I just happen to fall strongly on one side.

As for the mobility/access/handicapped issue, where do we draw the line? No bikes of any kind are allowed on hiking trails in Yosemite for example. People who cannot hike cannot access any of those trails. Should these trails be opened to ebikes so that everyone has access? What about people who can't even sit/balance on an ebike? Are we going to create some sort of eDumpTruck to haul them up trails also? What is the dividing line?

Or how about places like Boundary Waters, where no motors are allowed -- only hand-paddled watercraft. Should eCanoes have access? Historically that area has had no motors and electric boat motors have been around for decades. Why is it different for ebikes?

Areas that have been motor-free should stay that way. The trails near my home don't say "no motorcycles" or "no gas engines", they say "no motorized vehicles". That is not open to interpretation.

 

[cucubits]

they say "no motorized vehicles". That is not open to interpretation.

Isn't it? The electronic gear shifters are more and more wide spread in the mountainbiking world. They have a little motor which pushes the chain from one sprocket to another. Technically these are motorized vehicles. Does it make sense to ban them?

What I agree with is that it's tricky to choose where to draw the line. I would imagine a good solution to be weight based which would leave these pedal assisted bikes alone...

 

[CyberGus]

It is both sensible and rational to reevaluate current regulations when confronted with a change in technology.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

We have a class 1 mountain e-bike and it is great. However, I still prefer old-fashioned non e-bike road biking since it's less jarring on my wrists and back.

One concern some might have with an e-bike vs. a regular bike would be the potential to catch fire. Such fires have happened with "hoverboards", cell phones and even Teslas but I haven't really heard of any with e-bikes yet. I'm sure the fire danger is quite rare but if one is out on a remote trail and has an accident severe enough to damage the bike battery and start a fire, things could quickly get out of control.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

OK, for those of you asking "why would anyone be against having ebikes on public trails"? -- above is one of the main reasons. Once -any- motorized bike is allowed on a given trail, people like S4W will take whatever motorized bike they feel like on the trail. That's not my only reason for being strongly against ebikes on trails, but that is a big one. BTW 20mph or 28mph are both much faster than the average mountain biker travels, uphill or downhill.

There are two things to unpack here.

First is that's not really WHY people are against electric bikes. I firmly stand by my position that the dislike for e-bikes is because they are the great equalizer. It allows anyone to use the trails and hardcore cyclist simply don't like that. This means that trails will be more crowded, and accidents will occur more often as you have more unexperienced riders going faster than typical bicyclist go.

I don't have any particular disagreement with people that are against E-Bikes for this reason. My only comment to them is the ship has a sailed, and there is no going back. Especially not in a country where most adults are not healthy enough to ride a bike. We're so unhealthy that was absolutely have to do something about it.

So I think the benefits for the majority outweigh the cons for the minority.

The second thing to unpack is the acknowledgement that it's going to be a little difficult to enforce class levels. Ultimately how someone uses their MTB is up to them. Regardless of the type of bike anyone who is traveling at high rate of speed next to kids or in a crowded area is an idiot.

I'd rather see enforcement target unruly riders, and not get caught up in spec checking like it was a Formula one race. Plus there is a subset of E-Bike owners who have created their own so they can basically determine what class they want simply by changing some parameters in the firmware.

Legalizing E-Bikes in Federal lands won't be all sunshine and roses. There will be consequences and I see no reason to try to hide them. Technology is advancing at a rapid pace so that means motors will get smaller, and batteries will get smaller. Modern E-bikes are so much more quiet and stealthy than they used to be, and it will continue.

 

[CyberGus]

If the purpose of the trail is for the enjoyment of nature’s quiet and fresh air, then a Yamaha YZ250 is obviously inappropriate, no matter how well-intentioned the rider may be.

It is less about the conveyance and more about following a code of conduct.

 

[TMThree]

Just because 1 e-bike is no worse than 1 regular bike doesn't mean that 1 regular bike AND 10 e-bikes isn't worse than 1 regular bike.

Your problem isn't about the ebike itself, but that allowing them would enable more people to enjoy the park, and you'd prefer it for yourself.

That's selfish of you.

 

[cypho]

I think I see a trend here: anyone who disagrees with the OP or questions his premise, must be wrong because of <insert random non-fact-based insult here>.


FYI - Although that is the current President's favorite debate style too, it is not particularly persuasive.

 

[lotusland]

I think I see a trend here: anyone who disagrees with the OP or questions his premise, must be wrong because of <insert random non-fact-based insult here>.

FYI - Although that is the current President's favorite debate style too, it is not particularly persuasive.

Yes, I think all but one poster has called anyone disagreeing with OP "ignorant" or worse. It's disappointing but as you said, normal now.

 

[Silicon Desert]

Hiker and mountain biker here. I don't want ebikes or any kind of motorized vehicle on trails. This is not an ICE-vs-E thing, it is a motors-vs-self powered thing. Trails are for people who provide their own power generally. There are a few trails that motors have been allowed on here in CA historically, of course those should be open to eBikes also. BTW never heard of an "acoustic bike", I don't know if you created that term or if it is in general use but it is silly. I will submit my comments -- thanks!

yup, I never heard of an "Acoustic bike" either. Is that like an acoustic guitar? Doesn't seem like a very descriptive term. And I am a bit on the fence about this since some digbat almost ran over me on a hiking trail after coming up over a ridge at full speed.

 

[MXLRplus]

I think I see a trend here: anyone who disagrees with the OP or questions his premise, must be wrong because of <insert random non-fact-based insult here>.


FYI - Although that is the current President's favorite debate style too, it is not particularly persuasive.

OK, now we just need the Hitler and Save the Children posts and the thread is complete.

 

[EVortex]

Yes, I think all but one poster has called anyone disagreeing with OP "ignorant" or worse. It's disappointing but as you said, normal now.

individual freedoms combined with informed choice make for great debate.