EAP driving into the sun? Your experiences?

[woodisgood]

When my wife hits her commute late, she ends up driving straight into the bright, rising sun heading down 280-S in the SF Bay Area. She reports that EAP gets especially unreliable in this situation, unable to keep a lane when the sun glares just right. It practically drove her into a truck this morning.

I'm wondering if others have experienced this - it certainly makes sense given that the camera may not be able to see lane markers when it's looking straight into the sun (or rather, may not have enough ND compensation), but it's something I hadn't seen much of on the forums. I imagine there are many Tesla owners making the morning commute down 280S around 7-730AM...she only sees around 30+ Model 3 on her commute, lol...

 

[Runt8]

When my wife hits her commute late, she ends up driving straight into the bright, rising sun heading down 280-S in the SF Bay Area. She reports that EAP gets especially unreliable in this situation, unable to keep a lane when the sun glares just right. It practically drove her into a truck this morning.

I'm wondering if others have experienced this - it certainly makes sense given that the camera may not be able to see lane markers when it's looking straight into the sun (or rather, may not have enough ND compensation), but it's something I hadn't seen much of on the forums. I imagine there are many Tesla owners making the morning commute down 280S around 7-730AM...she only sees around 30+ Model 3 on her commute, lol...

I'm in the same situation on my drive home. The only time I've found it unreliable is when there's repaired cracks running alongside the lane lines - the sun glares off of them and makes them look like additional lane lines, and AP gets very confused.

 

[TM Parts]

I'm in the same situation on my drive home. The only time I've found it unreliable is when there's repaired cracks running alongside the lane lines - the sun glares off of them and makes them look like additional lane lines, and AP gets very confused.

Sounds like BS because a radar detects cars up ahead and there are rear facing cameras in the fenders and ultra sonic sensors in the bumpers that detects cars on the side. I've driven against the sun a million times and never had an issues.

 

[sperkin]

Same with my wife's car and her experience. She heads towards the Sun while I head away from it.

She says EAP would lose sight of lines and go for the wall dividing the HOV lanes during turns. She just got used to deactivating EAP before she gets there now.

 

[sperkin]

Sounds like BS because a radar detects cars up ahead and there are rear facing cameras in the fenders and ultra sonic sensors in the bumpers that detects cars on the side. I've driven against the sun a million times and never had an issues.

There are many places in LA where they extend the freeway to make HOV lanes. They use different pavement, color, and texture which confuses EAP. The colors don't start/stop at the dashed lines. Often they are cut in the middle of the HOV lane and turns back in non-HOV lane. EAP will sometimes get confused and try to turn with the lines. I have gotten very close to colliding and have to manually take over. After awhile you will know which spots are bad and take Off EAP. This happens day or nights. Doesn't matter if there is Sun in the camera or not. Its just how fake lanes are formed when they widen the freeway.

 

[OPRCE]

Sounds like BS because a radar detects cars up ahead ...

Not true in all cases, e.g. at 80mph on motorway when lead vehicle steps aside to reveal practically stationary road-sweeper truck 200m ahead in same lane, Tesla radar does not distinguish massive obstacle in path from inconsequential roadside clutter, e.g. railings, so just nonchalantly makes best effort to plough on through, as demonstrated by Gao Yaning [ † 20 January 2016, Handan, Hebei, China ]

I've driven against the sun a million times and never had an issues.

"I fell out of a tree yesterday holding a running chainsaw and managed to not lop my own head off, so wish me luck when I will try again tomorrow." A gossamer-thin argument that the system is safe.

Also, to the OP's question, Walter Huang [ † 23 March 2018, Mountain View, California, USA ] and another Tesla driver who survived hit similar crash-attenuators on highway while driving into a low glaring sun:

Not conclusive but plausible that this was a major contributing factor blinding the driver at the precise moment AP followed the wrong line in worn road markings, but there is definitely a strong argument for LiDAR to eliminate the low-sun problem, as it is active and insusceptible to natural light interference.

Either that or a free upgrade to a radar sensor which is actually worth a *sugar* across the full range of speeds at which AP can be active!

PS: Personally I always assume control in reduced visibility.

 

[Runt8]

Sounds like BS because a radar detects cars up ahead and there are rear facing cameras in the fenders and ultra sonic sensors in the bumpers that detects cars on the side. I've driven against the sun a million times and never had an issues.

Radar and ultrasonic sensors don't detect lane lines, only the front facing cameras are used for that. As long as the lines are clear it does fine with sun glare. But anything that makes the lane lines difficult to make out (or looks like additional lines) will cause problems with EAP.

 

[SMAlset]

This isn't surprising about sun glare and is covered in Tesla's manual under Autopilot as one of the conditions that can cause the system to not function as intended and be a limitation. "Bright light (due to oncoming headlights, direct sunlight, etc.)" The proper thing to do when driving into the sun would be to deactivate at that time. Sunlight, morning or evening, in your eyes is really a safety issue and surely a cause of many accidents--with driver assist or not. One of those situations that Tesla can't really help with unfortunately and drivers who use Autopilot need to be aware and plan for. Usually the condition lasts for a short period of time but unfortunately for many it happens during rush hour.

 

[Big Earl]

Sounds like BS because a radar detects cars up ahead and there are rear facing cameras in the fenders and ultra sonic sensors in the bumpers that detects cars on the side. I've driven against the sun a million times and never had an issues.

I've experienced exactly the same thing - crack repairs reflecting sunlight, confusing Autopilot. Certainly not BS, as you suggest.

Lane keeping appears to be handled by one of the center cameras - I believe the narrow field of view - the same one that does dashcam. What the other cameras, radar and ultrasonic sensors do not currently factor into lane keeping.

You can minimize this by keeping your windshield clean, although that doesn't solve the problem entirely.

 

[OPRCE]

This isn't surprising about sun glare and is covered in Tesla's manual under Autopilot as one of the conditions that can cause the system to not function as intended and be a limitation. "Bright light (due to oncoming headlights, direct sunlight, etc.)" The proper thing to do when driving into the sun would be to deactivate at that time. Sunlight, morning or evening, in your eyes is really a safety issue and surely a cause of many accidents--with driver assist or not. One of those situations that Tesla can't really help with unfortunately and drivers who use Autopilot need to be aware and plan for.

This design flaw demonstrates that the current AP sensor suite is certainly unfit for its claimed FSD purpose, which Tesla can really help with by retrofitting one or two upgrades at its own expense in the near future, even for those who only have the EAP option, else class-action lawsuit.

 

[sperkin]

This design flaw demonstrates that the current AP sensor suite is certainly unfit for its claimed FSD purpose, which Tesla can really help with by retrofitting one or two upgrades at its own expense in the near future, even for those who only have the EAP option, else class-action lawsuit.

I don't think FSD is a simple CPU swap, but I hope I'm wrong because I would love to sleep in my car while it drives me to work/home or sit in the back playing Nintendo Switch, or watch YouTube/Netflix, etc. However, there are so many situations where our mind can fill in the blanks where I don't think a computer will understand. People don't follow rules so the rules are always changing on the road. I don't know how anyone can program it.

There are also roads here where it's a small tight "S" curve and most people will favor left side, center, and right side of the lane to navigate it at freeway speed. EAP will slam on the brake, turn sharp left, then sharp right before speeding back up because it has to stay perfecting centered between the lines. It pisses off everyone behind me.

For FSD to work, all cars on the road has to be FSD and Roads must be designed for FSD. I just don't see how a FSD can protect itself from other drivers that don't follow the rules.

 

[OPRCE]

I don't think FSD is a simple CPU swap, but I hope I'm wrong because I would love to sleep in my car while it drives me to work/home or sit in the back playing Nintendo Switch, or watch YouTube/Netflix, etc. However, there are so many situations where our mind can fill in the blanks where I don't think a computer will understand. People don't follow rules so the rules are always changing on the road. I don't know how anyone can program it.

There are also roads here where it's a small tight "S" curve and most people will favor left side, center, and right side of the lane to navigate it at freeway speed. EAP will slam on the brake, turn sharp left, then sharp right before speeding back up because it has to stay perfecting centered between the lines. It pisses off everyone behind me.

For FSD to work, all cars on the road has to be FSD and Roads must be designed for FSD. I just don't see how a FSD can protect itself from other drivers that don't follow the rules.

I agree FSD is not done with the upgrade to AP3 mainboard and some software, because the current sensor suite is clearly insufficient to the task, on which basis FSD can never be 'patched' safe in software.

The bare minimum in sensors will be a new radar with x4 the resolution, if not the same thing for all cameras.

Ultimately FSD has to not cause accidents due to own error and mitigate/evade those caused/threatened by others in order to pass with flying colours, so I disagree that "all cars on the road has to be FSD and Roads must be designed for FSD" before it can work, which would be essentially never [as well as a circular logic].

 

[chickensworth]

absolutely problematic when driving into low, glaring sun angles... it can be outright dangerous. many a swerve and near miss... the car is blind to lanes and adjacent traffic if the glare and sun is direct enough. In my experience, it will sense the car ahead, but it takes longer than anticipated before applying the brake.

 

[wokuku]

I encountered something similar driving 280S in the morning. This is especially problematic when going uphill right after westborough exit where the cameras are basically facing the Sun directly